The EPA on 5w-20
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MolaKule
Staff member
And here's the EPA on drugs, as usual
I've been using 20w50 or 15w50 in my '88 Honda Civic since day one. My average MPG is still 36mpg after 194,000 miles.
I don't need no stink'n 5w30.
My experience is that thicker grade oils give good protection and good gas mileage.
I don't give the EPA much authority on recommendations for what's good for my engines. They have a different priority.
I don't need no stink'n 5w30.
My experience is that thicker grade oils give good protection and good gas mileage.
I don't give the EPA much authority on recommendations for what's good for my engines. They have a different priority.
From another board:
Thanks to the guys at Performance Oil Technology.........
New for model year 2001: Ford and Honda specify 5W-20 motor oil for ALL cars and light trucks.
Ford and Honda disguise the real reason by telling customers it is better for their vehicle. DON'T BELIEVE IT! Ford even went as far as to print "Use 5W-20 oil only" in bright yellow on the oil filler cap.
They are NOT looking out for the customers best interest. They are looking out for their best interest which ultimately results in more billions of dollars profit for them while all you end up with is less protection for your engine and an engine which will wearout sooner. Read on to learn the TRUTH behind 5W-20 and beware because more OEM's will be doing the same thing in the years to come.
Question: My owners manual specifies 5W-20 oil. Do I really need to use 5W-20 oil and why did my 2000 model year vehicle require a 5W-30 oil, while the exact same engine in my 2001 and 2002 requires a 5W-20 oil?
Answer: Absolutely Not! You DO NOT need to use a 5W-20 oil. Do not let your dealer scare you by telling you that you have to use it for your warranty. That is one of the biggest lies and deceptions that dealerships use to scare customers. Once you know the facts and the law you will be much better informed to protect your rights and use what is really best for your engine.
The ONLY reason 5W-20 was specified for your engine is to increase the CAFE (Corporate Average Fuel Economy) reported to the Federal Government. CAFE is the combined average fuel economy of all of a vehicle manufacturers product line. Minimum CAFE levels are specified by the Federal Government. In order for a vehicle manufacturer to continue selling profitable large trucks and SUV's, which typically have poor fuel mileage ratings, as compared to smaller cars, and still meet mandated CAFE requirements, they must also sell enough of the smaller cars which have much better fuel economy ratings to offset the poor fuel economy ratings of the larger vehicles. For model year 2001, the change to a 5W-20 oil will allow Ford and Honda's overall CAFE to increase by a very small amount, typically in the tenths of a mile per gallon range. 5W-20 oil is a lighter viscosity than a 5W-30 oil and therefore has less internal engine frictional losses, or less drag on the crankshaft, pistons and valvetrain, which in turn promotes increased fuel economy. This increased fuel economy is virtually undetectable to the average motorist without the use of specialized engine monitoring and testing equipment under strictly controlled test track driving when compared to a 5W-30, 10W-30 or a 0W-30 viscosity motor oil.
Therefore, 5W-20 has absolutely no benefit to you, the customer, other than to make you have to buy their expensive Honda or Motorcraft oil (which neither Honda or Ford actually manufacturers an oil; they simply source it to the low bidder) and get an oil which provides less protection for your engine!
Question: What are the negative aspects of using a 5W-20 motor oil?
Answer: There are many negative aspects, the most important is that 5W-20 has less film and shear strength than a 5W-30, 10W-30 or a 0W-30 motor oil. This can lead to increased and accelerated engine wear under today's demanding heat and high stress engine operating conditions. In our analysis, there is a limit to how light of a viscosity an engine oil can go, as a light viscosity oil such as 5W-20 offers less protection for your engine. What's going to be next 5W-10? If you operate under severe service conditions such as towing trailers, hauling heavy loads, stop and go driving in hot weather or sustained high speeds on the highway then you are even in a worse predicament. You would be much better off using either a 5W-30, 10W-30 or a 0W-30 motor oil.
Question: Could using a 5W-30, 10W-30, 0W-30 or even a 10W-40 or 20W-50, oil in my vehicle which specifies a 5W-20 oil void my new car warranty?
Answer: ABSOLUTELY NOT! Vehicle manufacturers only recommend using motor oils meeting certain viscosity grades and American Petroleum Institute service requirements. Whether a motor oil is a 5W-20, 5W-30, 10W-30, 0W-30, 10W-40 or 20W-50 (for racing and high performance applications in, for example, a Cobra R Mustang) or even a synthetic vs. a petroleum based oil will not affect warranty coverage. The manufacturer is required by Federal Law to cover all equipment failures it would normally cover as long as the oil meets API service requirements and specifications and was not the cause of failure. In addition, the Federally mandated Magnuson - Moss Act states that a manufacturer may not require a specific brand or type of aftermarket product unless it is provided free of charge. If your dealership continues to tell you that you must use 5W-20 motor oil and or/ a specific brand of 5W-20 motor oil, then ask them to put it in writing. Their position is inaccurate, and, in fact violates existing law.
Additionally, if there is ever a question of whether or not a particular motor oil was the cause of an engine failure make sure to get a sample of the used oil in a clean bottle, typically 6 oz. minimum. The oil can then be sent to two independent testing labs for analysis. This is standard procedure for most commercial vehicles, trucking, construction/excavation and fleet companies and there are numerous certified test labs all over the country. Remember, a knowledgeable and informed consumer is your best defense against being taken advantage of by a car dealership service center.
Thanks to the guys at Performance Oil Technology.........
New for model year 2001: Ford and Honda specify 5W-20 motor oil for ALL cars and light trucks.
Ford and Honda disguise the real reason by telling customers it is better for their vehicle. DON'T BELIEVE IT! Ford even went as far as to print "Use 5W-20 oil only" in bright yellow on the oil filler cap.
They are NOT looking out for the customers best interest. They are looking out for their best interest which ultimately results in more billions of dollars profit for them while all you end up with is less protection for your engine and an engine which will wearout sooner. Read on to learn the TRUTH behind 5W-20 and beware because more OEM's will be doing the same thing in the years to come.
Question: My owners manual specifies 5W-20 oil. Do I really need to use 5W-20 oil and why did my 2000 model year vehicle require a 5W-30 oil, while the exact same engine in my 2001 and 2002 requires a 5W-20 oil?
Answer: Absolutely Not! You DO NOT need to use a 5W-20 oil. Do not let your dealer scare you by telling you that you have to use it for your warranty. That is one of the biggest lies and deceptions that dealerships use to scare customers. Once you know the facts and the law you will be much better informed to protect your rights and use what is really best for your engine.
The ONLY reason 5W-20 was specified for your engine is to increase the CAFE (Corporate Average Fuel Economy) reported to the Federal Government. CAFE is the combined average fuel economy of all of a vehicle manufacturers product line. Minimum CAFE levels are specified by the Federal Government. In order for a vehicle manufacturer to continue selling profitable large trucks and SUV's, which typically have poor fuel mileage ratings, as compared to smaller cars, and still meet mandated CAFE requirements, they must also sell enough of the smaller cars which have much better fuel economy ratings to offset the poor fuel economy ratings of the larger vehicles. For model year 2001, the change to a 5W-20 oil will allow Ford and Honda's overall CAFE to increase by a very small amount, typically in the tenths of a mile per gallon range. 5W-20 oil is a lighter viscosity than a 5W-30 oil and therefore has less internal engine frictional losses, or less drag on the crankshaft, pistons and valvetrain, which in turn promotes increased fuel economy. This increased fuel economy is virtually undetectable to the average motorist without the use of specialized engine monitoring and testing equipment under strictly controlled test track driving when compared to a 5W-30, 10W-30 or a 0W-30 viscosity motor oil.
Therefore, 5W-20 has absolutely no benefit to you, the customer, other than to make you have to buy their expensive Honda or Motorcraft oil (which neither Honda or Ford actually manufacturers an oil; they simply source it to the low bidder) and get an oil which provides less protection for your engine!
Question: What are the negative aspects of using a 5W-20 motor oil?
Answer: There are many negative aspects, the most important is that 5W-20 has less film and shear strength than a 5W-30, 10W-30 or a 0W-30 motor oil. This can lead to increased and accelerated engine wear under today's demanding heat and high stress engine operating conditions. In our analysis, there is a limit to how light of a viscosity an engine oil can go, as a light viscosity oil such as 5W-20 offers less protection for your engine. What's going to be next 5W-10? If you operate under severe service conditions such as towing trailers, hauling heavy loads, stop and go driving in hot weather or sustained high speeds on the highway then you are even in a worse predicament. You would be much better off using either a 5W-30, 10W-30 or a 0W-30 motor oil.
Question: Could using a 5W-30, 10W-30, 0W-30 or even a 10W-40 or 20W-50, oil in my vehicle which specifies a 5W-20 oil void my new car warranty?
Answer: ABSOLUTELY NOT! Vehicle manufacturers only recommend using motor oils meeting certain viscosity grades and American Petroleum Institute service requirements. Whether a motor oil is a 5W-20, 5W-30, 10W-30, 0W-30, 10W-40 or 20W-50 (for racing and high performance applications in, for example, a Cobra R Mustang) or even a synthetic vs. a petroleum based oil will not affect warranty coverage. The manufacturer is required by Federal Law to cover all equipment failures it would normally cover as long as the oil meets API service requirements and specifications and was not the cause of failure. In addition, the Federally mandated Magnuson - Moss Act states that a manufacturer may not require a specific brand or type of aftermarket product unless it is provided free of charge. If your dealership continues to tell you that you must use 5W-20 motor oil and or/ a specific brand of 5W-20 motor oil, then ask them to put it in writing. Their position is inaccurate, and, in fact violates existing law.
Additionally, if there is ever a question of whether or not a particular motor oil was the cause of an engine failure make sure to get a sample of the used oil in a clean bottle, typically 6 oz. minimum. The oil can then be sent to two independent testing labs for analysis. This is standard procedure for most commercial vehicles, trucking, construction/excavation and fleet companies and there are numerous certified test labs all over the country. Remember, a knowledgeable and informed consumer is your best defense against being taken advantage of by a car dealership service center.
I can tell you that was written by someone who is amsoilized!.
Lots of truths and very informative(already knew it but great for those who didn't), but also Lots of inacurate information especially from a business owners standpoint. No time for details, but take the last half about warr issues and toss em and you got some good info.
Lots of truths and very informative(already knew it but great for those who didn't), but also Lots of inacurate information especially from a business owners standpoint. No time for details, but take the last half about warr issues and toss em and you got some good info.
Bob,
You were right. Apparently it came from an Amsoil website
You were right. Apparently it came from an Amsoil website
I personally don't take that stand. (The amsoil, post)
I think you will find that over time as base stocks get better, lighter oils will prevail.
Just like the 5w30 wasn't so popular in the 1980's (I was a 10w40 guy) But now, I have no problem using a 0w30.
I think you will see, that the recommended vehicles with 5w20 will last just as long as vehicles run with other oil's.
I would say it has more to do with the design of the engine, than the oil used in it. It seems some engines are destine for the scap pile in less than 100,000 miles and some just go on forever.
[ August 06, 2002, 08:19 AM: Message edited by: msparks ]
I think you will find that over time as base stocks get better, lighter oils will prevail.
Just like the 5w30 wasn't so popular in the 1980's (I was a 10w40 guy) But now, I have no problem using a 0w30.
I think you will see, that the recommended vehicles with 5w20 will last just as long as vehicles run with other oil's.
I would say it has more to do with the design of the engine, than the oil used in it. It seems some engines are destine for the scap pile in less than 100,000 miles and some just go on forever.
[ August 06, 2002, 08:19 AM: Message edited by: msparks ]
In all probability though the dealer that has to rebuild your engine will never know what weight oil you used (most receipts do not state it) and they would most likely never do an analysis and even if they did the weight may not test out. The 5W30 used could actually test out as a 20 and/or you could certainly argue that the oil changed during operation.
Of course the info above (from the Amsoil site) on the warranty issues is coming from a company that has never paid off on its warranty!
Of course the info above (from the Amsoil site) on the warranty issues is coming from a company that has never paid off on its warranty!
I tend to agree with Bob here. I'm no fan of 5W20 but that text was a little over-the-top and (unfortunately) what I've come to expect from some Amsoil representatives.
** Note: I said "some!"
--- Bror Jace
** Note: I said "some!"
--- Bror Jace
I think that if you run an other than recommended vis oil or a specifically recommended against vis oil and you had an oil related failure AND they could prove that you had run it, then it is probable that you would have a fight on your hands.
I think the same is true for the few engines that specifically require synthetic.
That being said, how would they know unless you got your oil changed at a dealership, or you actually told them what you had done...
I don't think that the Magnuson - Moss Act covers viscosity requirements. You can run an API spec 5W in the summer and still get a warranty repair for your spun bearings? I doubt it, not if they knew you had done that.
From what I understand, if an aftermarket part can be directly faulted in the failure of a covered part, you are out of luck.
Example;
They can't completely void your warranty for putting 4.10 gears in, but they can sure void the warranty on your axles and differential, and of course, the ring and pinion.
[ August 06, 2002, 09:12 AM: Message edited by: VaderSS ]
There has been interest in whether or not 5w20 is good/better for your car.
Before you make a firm decision, read this letter below from the EPA mandating how, and if, 5w20 can be used for CAFE testing. Know what motives of the automakers.
If you are still convinced the dealer and automaker will always recommend the best oil for your car I can't help you.
Before you make a firm decision, read this letter below from the EPA mandating how, and if, 5w20 can be used for CAFE testing. Know what motives of the automakers.
If you are still convinced the dealer and automaker will always recommend the best oil for your car I can't help you.
I read in a past issue of "Automotive Engineering" that EPA was requiring an engine durability test of (I believe) 150K miles. My understanding is that some how that requirement got dropped-gee what a surprise!!
This kinda explains the need/requirement for 5W20.
http://www.google.ca/search?q=cache...ry/lubes/44_tn3_4.pdf+api+++sl&hl=en&ie=UTF-8
http://www.google.ca/search?q=cache...ry/lubes/44_tn3_4.pdf+api+++sl&hl=en&ie=UTF-8
msparks,
I believe you are correct in that we are destined for lighter oil in the future,,how near or how far I don't know but Jay posted some Honda bearing clearances,it seems the time is now for one of those motors unless tore down and some machine work is done
That Vanderbilt Company sure seems to have a good start on Moly for use when GF4 come,,much info on their site about a new Moly that uses less Sulphur to allow the moly to plate
Some interesting info on Borate Ester Anti Wear Technology as well
here is the Moly-- http://www.rtvanderbilt.com/newtechnav.htm?news
[ October 26, 2002, 11:56 AM: Message edited by: dragboat ]
I believe you are correct in that we are destined for lighter oil in the future,,how near or how far I don't know but Jay posted some Honda bearing clearances,it seems the time is now for one of those motors unless tore down and some machine work is done
That Vanderbilt Company sure seems to have a good start on Moly for use when GF4 come,,much info on their site about a new Moly that uses less Sulphur to allow the moly to plate
Some interesting info on Borate Ester Anti Wear Technology as well
here is the Moly-- http://www.rtvanderbilt.com/newtechnav.htm?news
[ October 26, 2002, 11:56 AM: Message edited by: dragboat ]
I know that I'm the minority, but I believe that lighter oils are better from all standpoints, including engine wear. Since most engine wear occurs at start-up and warm-up the lighter oils have an advantage over heavier ones, especially in cold climates. I look forward to testing this through oil analysis in my car. I'm glad the manufacturer recommends 5w-20 so I can try the lighter oils without worrying about my warrantee.
But I have to agree with everyone here that CAFE stinks. I deeply resent the government messing around with our fuel and our oils. No good has come of any of it.
But I have to agree with everyone here that CAFE stinks. I deeply resent the government messing around with our fuel and our oils. No good has come of any of it.
Patman
Staff member
It's possible that the lighter oil on startup might slightly reduce engine wear, but it's having that lighter oil at operating temp that worries me most. At high rpms that 20wt oil might not be able to provide the proper layer of protection that a 30wt can. I am very interested in seeing more 5w20 oil analysis results though. Perhaps with the right amount of antiwear additives, a 20wt can work. Time will tell.
MolaKule
Staff member
If anyone is interested I could do a summary of the paper.
http://theoildrop.server101.com/cgi/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=4;t=000041
http://theoildrop.server101.com/cgi/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=4;t=000041
If you have the time... I think it would be interesting
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