The Electric Army
- Thread starter redbone3
- Start date
Which seems to be what the plan is.
I think you are confused.
Jet engines were leaps forwards beyond biplanes. Glass cockpits were leaps forward as well. Both radically improved war fighting and airplane designs. FYI, fighter jets using jet engines, are far far far more fuel hungry than a biplane; so you have literally just destroyed your own argument. Thank you. I love it when internet folks kill their own argument. The world chose jet engines NOT for their irrelevant carbon offsets, but because it was the best device in spite of being fuel hungry.
Name any EV material improvement to war fighting or vehicles as it pertains to military usefulness. I won't hold my breath. EV are huge leaps backwards in terms of reliability, range, field repairs, durability, hauling power, cold-weather operation, and a host of other things important for military operations. They simply have ZERO ability to move heavy equipment, and in case you're not aware anything armored in heavy equipment and the military uses mostly armored vehicles.
Go look up the weight differences in an un-armored vs. armored Humvee or GMC Suburban. I'll get you started. A base M113 Humvee is around 6000 pounds. Add required armor and beefier engine/suspension/trans/brakes, tires, now you've basically doubled the weight to around 12,000 pounds. Suburban about 7500 pounds but armor and beefier truck comes in around 11,000 pounds. EV is not going to move that weight, not even factoring the massive battery that would need to be installed. Even if it could the battery would drain in 10 minutes.
Just forget serious armored vehicles like a Bradley fighting vehicle (30 tons), Stryker type (18 tons), or any tracked vehicle or tank like an M1 Abrams at 60 tons. EV won't even move these measured in tens of tons. Nor anything capable of passenger flight. It's all just this stupid fantasy religion that has a stranglehold on certain mentalities that kills critical thinking abilities.
If "save the environment" is the reason, that religion is nonsense and furthermore, irrelevant to the warfighting calculous. A military powered on unicorn tears, wishful thoughts, rainbow energy, and hugs and smiles will fail.
Try again.
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The other comical angle here is, as anyone who served would know, in a deployed environment practically everything is going to be powered by big diesel gennys. So if you had EVs around, they'd all be plugged into big diesel generators. LOL.
And in garrison, what are we to do? Every unit has these huge motorpools, basically big gravel parking lots by each unit. So I suppose we install literally tens of thousands of EV charging stations? Hundreds across all the bases divided into all these motor pools? The costs would be billions of dollars. Or alternately, more diesel generators.
It is hilarious how incredibly dumb people are. They literally have no clue how things work. Just float all these wishful thinking nonsensical ideas to "save the planet." Yeah, right. Try learning something about the world before making dumb suggestions. We termed these people "good idea fairies" in the Army.
And in garrison, what are we to do? Every unit has these huge motorpools, basically big gravel parking lots by each unit. So I suppose we install literally tens of thousands of EV charging stations? Hundreds across all the bases divided into all these motor pools? The costs would be billions of dollars. Or alternately, more diesel generators.
It is hilarious how incredibly dumb people are. They literally have no clue how things work. Just float all these wishful thinking nonsensical ideas to "save the planet." Yeah, right. Try learning something about the world before making dumb suggestions. We termed these people "good idea fairies" in the Army.
This insane war on fossil fuels is going to be the final nail in the coffin for the US. There's too many dumb, over-educated imbeciles believing all this brainwashing.
Here’s a take arguing that electrification makes sense. However, there has been no mandate that all vehicles be electrified. The DoD is starting with the electrification of stateside “non-tactical” ground transportation. This isn’t an official viewpoint of West Point, but it is a guest article that does mention what’s being mandated, tested, and proposed by the DoD. It cites that in many case there is a strong incentive for at least more fuel efficient vehicles given how vulnerable fuel supply logistics are and how many combat deaths are related to protecting fuel. It mentions the actual combat use of a lightweight electric motorcycle by snipers, citing several benefits including how quiet it is and how little heat it generates that can be detected.
mwi.usma.edu
I’ve used a bus transit system that’s mostly EV now. There should be plenty of case studies by now for how to deal with large EV fleets.
The Lethality Case for Electric Military Vehicles - Modern War Institute
The electric car revolution is arriving. Last year US President Joe Biden outlined a target to have 50 percent of all new vehicles sold in the United States zero-emission vehicles […]
mwi.usma.edu
I’ve used a bus transit system that’s mostly EV now. There should be plenty of case studies by now for how to deal with large EV fleets.
wemay
Site Donor 2023
Agreed. My belief is that the smart guys/gals will review the testing results and the right decisions will be made.
A lot of this is just about basic transportation in and around military bases. A lot of those already exist in EV form including passenger cars and buses. The challenge would be in the charging infrastructure.
Bus Stop Classics: Buses of the US Air Force – “All Aboard the Blue Goose”
During my military tours, I had the opportunity to drive a number of buses – not full-time, but typically incidental to my main duties. And being a car/truck/bus guy, I […]
Transportation made easy: 354th LRS Airman provides support during RF-A 16-2
From midnight pick-ups to early morning drop-offs and everything in-between, vehicle operators from the 354th Logistics Readiness Squadron stay busy during RED FLAG-Alaska exercises.Airman Donovan
www.eielson.af.mil
BAE is already working on a hybrid drivetrain for the Bradley. My uncle worked on the original back when it was FMC.
But what’s being proposed is not what the OP represents. There has been no mandate to completely electrify combat vehicles. The DoD is attempting to use EVs for a lot of the basic transportation needs at military bases. Buses, pickup trucks, cargo vans, and cars. It’s the low hanging fruit where the technology is already shown to work well.
Taking a paragraph from the attachment in posting number 47, one can see that a heavier vehicle might benefit from the occasional application of battery derived torque, much like a bus accelerating from a stop, avoiding that huge amount of noise and emissions when taking off.
Perhaps this would be beneficial in a Bradley when climbing a hill. Also having a silent attack mode made be beneficial. As they mentioned, having generating capability would be useful to launch drones for surveillance and directing fire.
Perhaps this would be beneficial in a Bradley when climbing a hill. Also having a silent attack mode made be beneficial. As they mentioned, having generating capability would be useful to launch drones for surveillance and directing fire.
Last I heard there were like 6 or 7 logistics and support persons per active combat person in deployment. If this is correct then the logistics and support person within or near a safe base is going to be at least 1/3 of the total (I would think it is going to be even more like half) and the rest being combat vehicles.
If they are inside a base, why wouldn't it be a good idea to do diesel hybrid on them, like bus, forklift, sedans, vans, etc? If it is not armor plated it is probably ok to turn into hybrid, no? Few fewer fuel run would mean fewer chances of getting bombed and cheaper.
If they are inside a base, why wouldn't it be a good idea to do diesel hybrid on them, like bus, forklift, sedans, vans, etc? If it is not armor plated it is probably ok to turn into hybrid, no? Few fewer fuel run would mean fewer chances of getting bombed and cheaper.
One of the articles I saw mentioned that the DoD as a whole has about 170,000 civilian style ground vehicles. That’s where they’re starting off with.
They’ve employed other technology too such as solar in remote areas to supplement or replace generators. Fuel logistics can be crazy in an active war zone, and it was noted that the cost of transporting can be as high as $1000 per gallon. Disrupting fuel supplies as a military goal has been a thing for decades.
Yes I remember some of the fuel (jet fuel in particular) would be transported in from far away, trusted area, to avoid risk of sabotage. I would imagine if dropping water to a remote site being really expensive, reducing the frequency or volume of each drop would be easier to manage.
Still, even if you are just using Okinawa, a friendly place for US military, as an example, you can always save some money using less fuel. For those 170k civilian vehicles hybrid would be the way to go and the fuel savings in a few year would already offset the initial purchase cost or logistic of moving those vehicles there.
Fully electric makes little to no sense.
Hybrids do, especially considering all the waiting and watching armored crews do.
The hybrid Abrams is pretty awesome zero heat signature when hanging out to give away your position.
Hybrids do, especially considering all the waiting and watching armored crews do.
The hybrid Abrams is pretty awesome zero heat signature when hanging out to give away your position.
I don't know about zero heat signature. I've seen the discussion about infrared guidance, and it doesn't really require a hot target but heat contrast. And if there's an engine that's warm, it's not going to be easy to hide that. But it should be harder to spot.
However, I haven't found anything to suggest the OP's premise that there's an order to go all electric for combat ground vehicles. There is a move for all electric non-combat vehicles. The majority of the DoD's vehicles aren't combat vehicles. They're the buses that move people around the base or to town. They're the cars, the vans, and the vehicles used to move stuff around the base. That's the technology that already exists and has been proven to work for moving people and material relatively short distances
It truly will be a straw breaking the camel's back. I am dumbfounded at how utterly dumb these people are, and that so many are somehow in positions of authority brainwashing masses of people, wasting billions of dollars. Meanwhile these leaders personal behaviors of private jets, mansions, and other waste is never critically examined by their followers as being hypocritical - as if they don't even believe the nonsense being preached.
But the 2nd sentence of the article is a bold-faced lie. EVS are not "zero emissions." They just move the pollution from the tailpipe, to somewhere else.Here’s a take arguing that electrification makes sense. However, there has been no mandate that all vehicles be electrified. The DoD is starting with the electrification of stateside “non-tactical” ground transportation. This isn’t an official viewpoint of West Point, but it is a guest article that does mention what’s being mandated, tested, and proposed by the DoD. It cites that in many case there is a strong incentive for at least more fuel efficient vehicles given how vulnerable fuel supply logistics are and how many combat deaths are related to protecting fuel. It mentions the actual combat use of a lightweight electric motorcycle by snipers, citing several benefits including how quiet it is and how little heat it generates that can be detected.
The Lethality Case for Electric Military Vehicles - Modern War Institute
The electric car revolution is arriving. Last year US President Joe Biden outlined a target to have 50 percent of all new vehicles sold in the United States zero-emission vehicles […]
I’ve used a bus transit system that’s mostly EV now. There should be plenty of case studies by now for how to deal with large EV fleets.
These are powered by coal factories, diesel generators, etc. "Green" power is less than 3% globally.
How can anyone base anything important on dishonest information? Where is peoples' critical thinking button?
Correct regarding the challenges. Let's imagine a normal house with a garage. Guy owns an EV car, and drives to work 50 miles and returns 50 miles. Plugs in the EV at home. Gets up tomorrow and has a fully charged EV. Simple simple.
But so far the largest practical EV is about the size of a mid-sized SUV, 5000 pounds. A military Humvee is a lot heavier than that without armor. With armor 2.5x heavier.
Now, let's imagine a military base Division size, 50,000 Soldiers. 10,000 light vehicles. Vehicles that are often required to haul lots of men, lots of gear, drive hundreds of miles into remote areas. Are we installing 10,000 chargers and having these all charging at all times? Or the constant rotation of vehicles to chargers as they charge? Are they hauling diesel generators with them now, dedicated for the EVs on missions in the field? Or having the mounted on the vehicle, charging the entire time, for longer range? FYI vehicles in the field can often be in the field for days or weeks, where we'd normally just refill the tank with fuel. But now we'd have to bring generators and fuel just for the vehicles. Thereby being less efficient whilst defeating any perceived benefits. Military vehicles also need to tow stuff. And be maintained in the field by mechanics. Are we going to have Soldiers standing around for 2 hours waiting for batteries to recharge?
It all literally is a hairbrained stupid nonsensical notion that needs to die. It's totally unworkable, impractical, and wasteful.
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indeed, and its getting worseThe other comical angle here is, as anyone who served would know, in a deployed environment practically everything is going to be powered by big diesel gennys. So if you had EVs around, they'd all be plugged into big diesel generators. LOL.
And in garrison, what are we to do? Every unit has these huge motorpools, basically big gravel parking lots by each unit. So I suppose we install literally tens of thousands of EV charging stations? Hundreds across all the bases divided into all these motor pools? The costs would be billions of dollars. Or alternately, more diesel generators.
It is hilarious how incredibly dumb people are. They literally have no clue how things work. Just float all these wishful thinking nonsensical ideas to "save the planet." Yeah, right. Try learning something about the world before making dumb suggestions. We termed these people "good idea fairies" in the Army.
Again - this is currently in the planning stages. The large majority of the vehicles that the DoD uses are mundane vehicles like passenger cars and pickup trucks. Here's an article (from Doug DeMuro no less) on the pickup trucks used by the US Navy in the San Diego area.
Interestingly, I saw dozens of these things — all Silverados — in Coronado, so the Navy must have a bunch of them. If you think it’s cool, just wait: I suspect it’ll be coming to a local military surplus auction in the next decade or two. Or maybe you can duplicate it yourself with your window-washing work truck.
There are already companies doing EV mods on large pickups. Ford is already making an EV version of the Transit. These vehicles aren't tasked with moving materials hundreds of miles. They're meant to take stuff from one end of a base to another or to move things from the one nearby base to another that might be 10-25 miles away.
Here's a bus that was scheduled to take a Congressional delegation from the Capitol Building to Joint Base Andrews (less than 15 miles) for a flight. I would think this type of vehicle would be almost ideal for electrification. It would have a lot of room under the floor for batteries and one of the things I've always hated about getting on a bus was the smell of diesel exhaust and the rumbling engine noise. And they wouldn't need to keep the engine running like I've seen with typical coach buses.
Maybe something like this:
Features - MCI
www.mcicoach.com
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