The dangers of flush machines

[Whimsey]

My wife's 2005 Explorer has had the factory fill atf EXCHANGED at the dealer at around 25,000 miles. They did not drop the pan to change the filter. At around 60,000 miles total, 35,000 on the exchanged fluid, had it done at the local/large mechanic's shop that also deals in heavy duty trucks in addition to cars. They used the fluid exchange method but they did a pan drop and filter replacement in addition to the complete exhange. It shifts like brand new. The dealer and the independent shop both used Motorcraft Mercon V. The Indie shop also used a Motorcraft tranny filter.

My wife's previous 2002 Explorer had the factory fill exchanged with Motorcraft Mercon V at the dealer at around 30,000 miles. It was shifting just fine when I took it in for the fluid exchange. It was amazing how much better it shifted after the ATF exchange. I guess you don't really notice the deterioration of shifting quality because it happens slowly over time. But it's there. I guess it takes about 100,000 miles for people to realize that it's really shifting like s**t on the factory fill

. By then the damage is done to your expensive tranny when a few bucks invested along the way could have saved you some serious $$$$.

Whimsey

 

[coachditka]

I have never had a problem with any fluid exchange. I had a BG transmission service done at 35k. Since I have a Titan, they used the synthetic fluid that is Matic J compatible. I would never let a quick lube place do anything to my vehicle other than my required state inspection.

I have a mechanic that I trust and BG stands behind their products.

I went to the dealership to have some warranty work done. The service adviser called me and said he going to try and sell me the transmission service due to my mileage. But they looked at the fluid and thought it was new. They also use the BG at the dealer.

I have never been a fan of mixing 5 quarts of new fluid with 5 quarts of old fluid. Especially if you want to put in a good syn like Mobil 1, Royal Purple, or Amsoil, it's best to get all the old fluid out first.

Just my two cents.

 

[Donald]

Originally Posted By: coachditka
I have never had a problem with any fluid exchange. I had a BG transmission service done at 35k. Since I have a Titan, they used the synthetic fluid that is Matic J compatible. I would never let a quick lube place do anything to my vehicle other than my required state inspection.

I have a mechanic that I trust and BG stands behind their products.

I went to the dealership to have some warranty work done. The service adviser called me and said he going to try and sell me the transmission service due to my mileage. But they looked at the fluid and thought it was new. They also use the BG at the dealer.

I have never been a fan of mixing 5 quarts of new fluid with 5 quarts of old fluid. Especially if you want to put in a good syn like Mobil 1, Royal Purple, or Amsoil, it's best to get all the old fluid out first.

Just my two cents.


I think a flush is the best way to exchange old fluid for new. Especially when using expensive ATF.

Two things that can make it even better:

1) drain the pan, it eliminates mixing of old and new in the pan itself.

2) ask the person doing the flush to purge the machine of any new ATF still in the machine. In many cases there is a QT or two of the new ATF used for the prior flush still left in the machine and it may not be the proper type for your vehicle.

If you do a cooler line flush yourself (easier than you think) then you don't have either of these problems.

 

[hounddog]

Using the BG Chemicals is really a option.One helps somewhat on varnish and enhances draining.Same as a small can of engine flush.The other is a seal conditioner and I have seen it help ones with morning sickness(hard seals)Its STILL a fliud exchange.I saw the proof over a number of years at the decrease in transmission failures using a exchange machine.If the torque converters had drains you could just drop the pan and drain the converter and more or less get the same results.But they don't.I think those machines were a simple trick invention.Best thing to happen to a automatic trans since their invention.

 

[Cutehumor]

The more I read about the flushing. The more I think it could be the conditioner and when the trans is "cleaned" the gunk plugs the trans filter causing a trans failure. I bet most shops are not dropping the pan to change the trans filter at all. Some eggheads probably think a trans flush replaces the old pan drop/filter change. They just push a freakin button to do the flush and that's all that is needed. It's like with Auto-rx, the sludge goes in the filter, you have to change it the oil/filter after X miles.

 

[friendly_jacek]

Originally Posted By: Cutehumor
The more I read about the flushing. The more I think it could be the conditioner and when the trans is "cleaned" the gunk plugs the trans filter causing a trans failure. I bet most shops are not dropping the pan to change the trans filter at all. Some eggheads probably think a trans flush replaces the old pan drop/filter change. They just push a freakin button to do the flush and that's all that is needed. It's like with Auto-rx, the sludge goes in the filter, you have to change it the oil/filter after X miles.


Exactly, Amsoil said the same thing:

ISSUES:

Many quick lube oil change companies are using flush-
ing machines to change the automatic transmission fluid.
Using flushing machines does not address the need for
cleaning the sediment in the transmission pan, cleaning
the magnet inside the transmission pan, or changing the
transmission oil filter.

TECHNICAL DISCUSSION:

Flushing machines are used to provide a quick transmis-
sion fluid change, however they do not address transmis-
sion pan cleanliness or filter changes. By taking the
transmission pan off, sediment in the pan as well as the
magnet can be cleaned, and the fluid filter can be
changed. Manufacturers recommend a filter change with
the oil change, and recommend against the use of flush-
ing machines due to possible fluid contamination from
pan sediment.

Link:
http://bestsyntheticoil.com/amsoil-tech/new/ATF_and_Filter_Change_Procedures.pdf

 

[pickled]

Quick ?? I've changed a lot of filters out in my day (GM/Ford mainly) and I have never seen a trans filter "plugged up". As far as pan sediment I note some varnish, but other than one transmission that was fried (aluminum shavings everywhere) we only noted garbage on the magnets. Obviously having the magnet become saturated and slugs of material sloughing off is a concern, but clutch pack grit levels in transmissions serviced at appropriate intervals were usually pretty light. What is everyone else's experience with visual grime or plugged filters in vehicles serviced at reasonable levels??? FYI I don't think bestsyntheticoils is a site sponsor....

 

[oilmaven]

Ok help me out guys. I'm planning on taking my 2008 Impala in for a trans service when it hits 30,000 miles. I take it from this discussion that the pan should be dropped and the filter replaced BEFORE the flush? I always had the flush done first and THEN dropped the pan. I figured if the flush was removing any debris from the transmission it would tend to clog the new filter if the pan was dropped first. Maybe it doesn't matter but that was my thinking (got 90,000 miles on the 2003 PT Cruiser and have had the trans serviced with a flush and pan drop every 30,000 miles...then I go through the "relearning" procedure to smooth out the shifts. I'm running Redline C+ and about 1 1/2 quarts of ATF+4 which was needed for top-off in the last service...trans shifts like new).

 

[Mike_dup1]

My advice on the 2008 Impala, ONLY let transmission pro's service it. Oh, and don't let the dealer do it either unless they tell you that a trans pro will do the work.

 

[hounddog]

Well I'll tell you how WE did it at TWO different dealers.We suggested filter changes between 75k and 90k on what we called normal vehicle usage.On work/fleet vehicles that towed a lot or stopped and started a lot we did filters at 60k.I have seen inside the pans of hundreds if not thousands of regular family type SUVs,Wally wagons etc.that had FLIUD EXCHANGES done twice and then the filter(75k plus)and virtually NEVER saw much debris or anything near what could be called a stopped up filter.Saw a FEW that had a lot of debris and they were in the beginning stages of a bigger issue.Have had several buds that are HOTSHOTTERS towing with Dodge diesels that did Fluid Exchanges every 30k and at 90k did the filter.All said the filter taken out looked ALMOST as good as the filter going in.90k is MY limit on a filter on a commuter vehicle or my own.I usually do the filter between 60k and 90k(tops) on my own personal vehicle with fliud exchanged at 30k intervals.I would NOT drop the pan at 30k period.Would wait till 60k to 90k.Just hook,exchange and go.I will drop the filter on my 06 Gran Marquis at the 60k mark and top off with Amsoil Atf as I did a 17qt exchange on that car to Amsoil ATF at 30k.At 100k (or so)will do another fliud exchange 17 qts with Amsoil and NO pan drop until 120k plus or so.

 

[pickled]

Thanks for sharing your experience houndhog...that's about where I am at too.

 

[wiswind]

I hesitate to add to this already long thread.......great reading.

Hopefully this thread will not scare people away from changing /having changed for them, their transmission fluid at the recommended change interval.
A good shop (there are many of them out there) will do it right....and it is important service to have done for one who plans to keep their vehicle for a while.
If concerned about the correct fluid being used..ask them about it.....or....most shops will use the fluid that you bring (make sure that it is the correct fluid).

As already mentioned Fuid Exchange/Flush is being thought of in a couple of ways.

Staying with JUST fluid, no aditives, a machine that connects to to a vehicle transmission fluid cooler lines.....adding new fluid as the old is pumped out by the vehicle's transmission seems like a good plan (unless you don't have a cooler or some other special situation applies to your vehicle).

FORD has a unit that I read about in a TSB that is to be used to FLUSH the cooler ONLY (read.....NOT the transmission), this unit pulses warm transmission fluid through the cooler to clean crud out of the cooler, and to verify that the cooler is not clogged....still flows correctly.....whenever a transmission is replaced in a vehicle.
This is to avoid the crud in the cooler from contaminating the new transmission......or restricting fluid flow through the cooler, causing the new transmission to overheat.
They specifically state NO CHEMICAL ADIITVES are to be used.

This is an example of a good use for a "flushing" but, again, NOT on the transmission unit.
I wanted to mention this because one may be advised of this service.....as per the TSB # 3-14-8 issued on July 21, 2003 and it is a very good thing to have done.....to protect the new $$$ transmission.

As far as drop pan before or after fluid exchange?
IF your fluid flow is like mine, out to the cooler, back into the pan......You are dumping the old fluid out the out line (before or after the cooler)and putting the new fluid INTO the pan via the "IN" line to the transmission (fluid exchange machine) or through the dipstick add (driveway DIY method), pretty much all the fluid going into the pan is new, clean fluid.
For this reason, I like the pan drop before adding new fluid.

Personally, I drop the pan every OTHER fluid exchange (giving me a chance to eyeball in there for any signs of things I hope not see).
As I have the pan off......I put a new filter in.

Another personal variation that I like to do is add 9 oz. of Auto-RX about 1-2K miles before changing the fluid, with a Magnefine filter in the cooler line.
This is on the FORD AX4S transmission in a windstar, not the most reliable application......so a little extra TLC.
I also have a big auxillary cooler.

 

[Dr_No]

Originally Posted By: Built_Well
Good info from AutoTechRepair.Suite101 :

Who Recommends Flushing As Maintenance?

The shops that want to sell you the engine or transmission flush charge anywhere from $49.95 to $99.95, not including a new engine or transmission. Those are extra. And they state quite emphatically that it is recommended that it be done. But who actually recommends that it be done? I checked with GM, Ford, Chrysler, Nissan, Honda and several other new car manufacturers and not one recommended an engine or transmission flush as routine maintenance. In fact, they specifically don't recommend it at all!! The new car dealerships that do sell them use the implication that since they are the dealer that it must be the factory that recommends it. And if they do say the factory recommends it, they are flat out lying to you.

The only ones who do recommend flushing as a maintenance procedure are the companies that sell the flush machines and the shops that buy them. The flush machine manufacturers state quite clearly in their operating manuals not to use their machines on "high-mileage vehicles". That simple statement proves that flushing is not a safe procedure. It also absolves them of any responsibility of any damage that may occur due to the use of their equipment. This leaves the shop wholly responsible for anything that happens and the cost of correcting the damage that occurs.

The Dangers Of Flushing...

Flush machines do what they say; they force high pressure cleaning solvents back through the engine and transmission and clean out some of the accumulated junk that has formed. Now engines have small passages and galleries through which oil or automatic transmission fluid flow and there are one-way valves that keep the fluids from backtracking for whatever reason. By using an aggressive cleaning procedure like flushing, large chunks of accumulated sludge are broken off and forced backwards through these galleries and valves and, more often than not, lodge tightly and block them. This cuts off the normal flow of the fluid and causes lack of lubrication in an engine and abnormal or no shifting in a transmission. The results are expensive repairs, or more often, engine or transmission replacement.


LOL.


My shop has a transmission flusher that bypasses the fluid cooler line. It simply takes out old fluid and replaces new without pressure or solvents.

As for engine flushing, very debatable.

 

[Jim Allen]

I think the nutshell here is that there are "fluid exchanges" and "flushes." Fluid exchanges are just as described, you pump out the original fluid and put in fresh. That can be done many ways. Beneficial and no harm is done!

Flushes use higher pressure, solvents and sometimes backflushing. If you were just going to clean out a cooler... maybe... but doing the whole trans is problematic.

So, should we "officially" update the terminology?

 

[Dr_No]

I believe so. I have yet to hear about a backflushing transmission machine, or see one. How does that work when there is a pump in the tranny? It dosent.