The Bottom Line On Oil

[Pablo]

ryansride2017 and Matt89,

I don't PUSH it, I mention extended drains politely as a point of discussion. I'm not trying to make anyone feel guilty. It's sorta funny that you don't mention the 3K oil places....I'm sure they have zero designs on your wallet.

I do let Amsoil quality stand on it's own.

 

[gfcrane]

I have always thought that Buster's statement was pretty much right, but the subject is so facinating I don't plan on using "whatever" oil anyhow. A few days ago I decided to test the statements made several times that M1 UOAs tend to have higher iron than others. I extracted 110 UOAs from the forum, entered them into a spreadsheet, and sorted by brand for wear metals. The results:

code:

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Avg Avg ppm/kmi

Brand No Samples  OCI    Fe   Pb   Cu   Al 

Amzoil    21     5,813  2.8  1.8   6.7  0.6

M1        37     4,965  2.6  0.8   3.4  0.7

Red Line  19     4,703  2.5  1.8   7.6  1.1

Penz(dino)10     3,757  2.4  1.0   2.9  0.7

GC         7     4,808  2.3  1.8   7.9  0.7

Others    16     5,012  2.5  1.0   3.4  0.6

All Oils 110     5,055  2.6  1.3   5.1  0.7

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Some of the sample populations are much too small to be meaningful but the math is interesting. All I can say is that, based on the data submitted recently by posters, M1 does not appear on the average to tend toward high iron. 

Perhaps more meaningful is a sort by vehicle manufacturer:
[QUOTE]
code:
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[FONT=monospace][SIZE=2]            Avg    Avg ppm/kmi

Manufac No Samples OCI    Fe   Pb   Cu   Al

Chrysler     8    4,903  3.3  2.0  1.4  0.6

Ford        17    4,303  3.3  0.8  3.1  0.8   

GM          33    5,119  3.5  1.7 11.8  0.7

Honda        7    5,657  2.1  1.6  1.3  0.9    

Nissan       7    4,166  2.3  1.6  1.3  0.9

Subaru       9    5,008  1.5  0.9  1.1  0.7

Toyota      14    5,944  1.7  1.0  2.8  0.8

All Other   15    5,138  1.9  1.0  2.7  0.7

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The effect of several LS1 analysis are quite marked on the GM data. Some difference seems to exist between US and Japanese as groups. The aluminum turned out to be not a real wear indicator.

I am neither promoting nor criticising any of these items, merely posting what I thought was an interesting exercise.

 

[quadrun1]

quote:

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Originally posted by novadude:

quote:

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Don't exaggerate! Certain cars MUST have synthetic, like the Corvette. These cars constitute more than 0.1% of the vehicles on the road.

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That is wrong. Tell me why a Corvette MUST have synthetic. I see no sound mechanical reason for this to be a true statement.

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Mobil loves to promote the fact that Chevrolet eliminated the oil cooler when Mobil 1 became the spec'd oil.

Using conventional oil when the manufacturer says to use synthetic would simply be ridiculous.

 

[Amkeer]

gfcrane, thanks for that study!

Very interesting indeed.


Daily Drives:
-2003 Toyota Tacoma PreRunner XtraCab, Impulse Red, Peppy 2.7 Liter 4 Banger, Running Mobil1 Synthetics SS 5W-30.
ODO 6600 Miles.
-1995 Toyota 4-Runner, Evergreen, 3.0 V6, Running Mobil1 Synthetic SS 10W-30.
ODO 82600 Miles. (Switching to GC next)Nope sticking with M1.
http://community.webshots.com/user/amkeer

 

[sbc350gearhead]

I don't think you can use a simple spreadsheet to compare wear metals between different oils. Let's face it, the UOA's posted on the hardest driven and raced engines, have been using synthetics. That fact kind of fudges the numbers a hair.

 

[Last_Z]

I'll throw my two cents in:

-I agree with buster.
-Dino is NOT more expensive, especially when 90% of synthetic users don't go past 7500 miles.
-Wear rates are identical IMO....Chevron, motorcraft, pennzoil, Schaeffers, etc have showed better wear rates than top systhetic many times.
-Many engines beat up oil so bad, systhetics don't have a chance making it past 5-7k miles.
-I agree with Pablo's comment on wasted oil, but as I mentioned above, most syn user do less than 7k mile drains anyway.
-Synthetics offer better MPGs?? I haven't seen much proof, if any!
-A Corvette DOES NOT have to have synthetic only!
-gfcrane's compilation proves a couple of my points and well as buster's

I think the main benefits of synthetics are better performance on both extremes of the temperature range, longer drain intervals, enviromentally friendlier (when used to its max potential.)

I will most likely continue to use synthetic oils, but just because I'm addicted to this site, just like everyone else is.....and it also makes me feel warm and fuzzy!

Rick

 

[wulimaster]

quote:

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Originally posted by Robbie Alexander:

quote:

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Originally posted by wulimaster:
There are many reasons to use synthetic over dino.

The main one is COST.-*-*

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But to say that a Dino can not approach the same extended drains for much less money, or even the same money or even with not much difference in cost.. is not true.

BTW what does it cost you to run your SYNthetic oil for 20K or 50K or 100K, including all UOA's if you do those. And when you normally change the oil, is it about toast or does it have plenty of life left, and what is plenty, 5K.

There are dino's out there that in most every day applications will yield you and on a regular basis, at least 10K, and if you are like a lot here, willing to push the envelope, 20-30K+, add a bypass, and who knows.

I vote with my pocketbook.

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I have seen lots of data that shows that what I have said about cost is true.

Btw, what does it cost you to do 3k oil changes over 100k miles in extra gasoline costs? You can't tell me until you do a comparison.

For your next oil change do the following:

Over a fixed highway course, top off you tank and calculate your mileage. Do this with fresh oil, 1500 miles on the oil, and again at 3000 right before the next oil change. Make sure the wind is near zero so as not to mess up the readings and buy your gas at the same station for all the tests. Make sure you don't run the tests with oxiginated versus without.

Now do a autoRx clean and rinse. Add a similar weight OTC PAO which would be Mobil 1. Now do the same mpg test at 0 miles, 1500 miles, 3000, and 5000.

Let us know how the tests turn out.

According to you the cost of fuel should be the same.

As to how much life is left in PAO's vs dino's. Most dino's will go 1.5 times the hourly limit on the API SL sequence IIIF test before going ballistic on the viscosity and gelling. Quality PAO's wil go 3 times easy and tend to degrade slowly and not go ballistic on viscosity.

A lot of todays engines will not make it to 10k on dino without gelling. I wouldn't push it after seeing some UOA on synthetic on some toyotas and nissans.

I vote with my wallet also. It is cheaper for me to use a high quality PAO than for me to use dino. As a bonus I don't have to crawl under my vehicles as often which frees up my time. The better for the environment is also another bonus.

Perhaps when you have done the research I have in the last 14 months you will also come to my conclusion. If not, then could you please share with the board what you found that conclusively proves to you that dino is better on the wallet.

 

[TooManyWheels]

In response to RyansRide - You seem to be implying that we should not undertake any environmentally friendly actions unless we can take them to some extreme ends, as defined by some unknown authority who, or which, is qualified to judge what is "enough".

While I suppose we *could* all forsake our vehicles for foot travel, forsake our homes for mud huts, and forsake our clothes for leaves or cardboard from the dumpster, it doesn't really suit our purposes. While I am personally an environmental activist, I also recognize that there are tradeoffs. The fact is, each of us has things we are not going to give up, because they have either psychic, or actual utilitarian value. The more good things we choose to do willingly, the more not so good things we can indulge ourselves with, everything else being equal. Smart tradeoffs, not knee jerk reactions.

You can laugh at people who eat full-metal-jacket ice cream with a diet coke, but it is still better than eating the same ice cream with a regular coke. If you believe that people will give up ice cream just to appear consistent in the eyes of a stranger, then you aren't accounting for human nature.

[ January 09, 2004, 02:26 AM: Message edited by: TooManyWheels ]

 

[buster]

Tooslick I'm not trying to convince anyone of anything on here. I'm just trying to say that, hey, don't sweat oil so much, especially after Patman's thread that suggests a dino is sufficient for most daily drivers. I"m into UOA's and trying different oils and will continue to do so, but I know that it really doesn't make that much of a difference. You on the other hand, have an agenda on here and that is to sell Amsoil $ $ .

The only thing I will change my mind on is oil brands and that can change based on new formulations or trends we see with then, for instance, the high Iron in M1 which based on the spread sheet someone provided, isn't really that conclusive.

I like synthetics and think they are great for extended drains and high performance cars or cars like mine that beat up oil rather quickly. But we have seen enough proof that oils like Pennzoil and Cheveron are every bit as good as Amsoil or M1 up until a certain point.

I'm not trying to push my views or make it like this site is a waste as it certainly is not. This site is the best, period. But for those that get really wrapped up in thinking there cars will last so much longer bc a UOA suggests 3ppm vs 8ppm of a particular wear metal is so significant, might want to consider what Patman's thread has suggested. I believe changing a dino oil at 3-6k mile intervals will get you to the same high mileage mark as changing Amsoil every 15k to 20k miles. Environmental concerns are another issue and I commend Amsoil for promoting extended drains.

BTW, I live in South Jersey, 10mins outside Philly and it is NOTHING like scummy North Jersey. We call it south Jersey bc we can't stand North Jersey. I'm sure Alabama is nothing to brag about either.

[ January 09, 2004, 07:50 AM: Message edited by: buster ]

 

[TooSlick]

You can generally run Amsoil at least three time as long as you'd run a petroleum oil under the same conditions, regardless of the application. For example, instead of running 3000 mile oil changes in the 3.0L, V-6 toyota engine, you can go 9000-10,000 miles. Instead of running 40-50 hours in a Marine inboard, you can run 120-150 hours. Instead of changing every 2500 miles in a motorcycle, you can go 7500 miles. By the same token, if you are getting "clean" oil analysis results after 5000 miles with regular oil, I'm 99% certain you will be able to safely run Amsoil for at least 15,000 miles under those same conditions.

I'm certainly not vouching for the quality/durability of cost formulated, off-the-shelf synthetic lubes, but Amsoil - and Delvac 1 - in particular hold up very well for extended drain use. I also think that Redline is an excellent, if pricy, extended drain oil that will last for 10,000 miles in most cases I've seen.

As for the cost issue, I consider my labor to do an oil change and clean up the mess, to be worth about $25.00. So for me the break even point with Amsoil is about 6000 miles; compared to changing petroleum every 3000 miles. Anything I can do beyond that point is simply a bonus.

FWIW, most of my local Amsoil customers are engineers who have their oil changed at quick lubes, where it costs them $60.00 in materials/labor for an Amsoil change w/ their premium filter, compared to $25.00 for a petroleum oil change. So for them, the cost for oil changes on a per mile basis is the same, but they eliminate three out of every five trips to the quick lube and get better extreme temp performance. I'd say I have over 95% repeat customers, so almost no one who tries Amsoil ever switches back to petroleum oil, unless they have an old motor that leaks like a sieve ....

Tooslick
Dixie Synthetics

 

[Patman]

quote:

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FWIW, most of my local Amsoil customers are engineers who have their oil changed at quick lubes, where it costs them $60.00 in materials/labor for an Amsoil change w/ their premium filter, compared to $25.00 for a petroleum oil change. So for them, the cost for oil changes on a per mile basis is the same, but they eliminate three out of every five trips to the quick lube and get better extreme temp performance.

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This reminds of something I've been meaning to post about for a while. Most of us on here do our own oil changes, but there is a good portion of the country which does not. And if you look at the pricing on the synthetic oil packages out there, it changes things slightly.

For instance, Mr.Lube here in Canada has Castrol GTX as it's house brand, and if you opt for 5w30, it will cost you $44.55 with taxes. If you want another brand of conventional, it will be $49.15 with taxes. But yet if you opt for synthetics it will cost you $77.90 with taxes. So instead of running 5000km oil changes with conventional, you could run 10,000km changes with synthetics here and come out ahead. Or even better, go 15,000km between changes, and really save a lot of money! Let's say you drive 30,000km per year (that's how much I drive) It would cost you $267.30 in oil changes using GTX 5w30 every 5000km, and you'd make six trips there for a total of probably six hours of your time lost (when you include the time spent driving to and from, the time spent waiting in line, etc.) But if you use their synthetic package, and change it every 15,000km, it only costs you $155.80 per year (a savings of $111.50 per year) and you only make two trips there, so it gives you four extra hours of time you can spend doing other things (like surfing this site!)

Those above numbers are even more in favor of synthetics if you need to have a skidplate removed, since they charge $10 for this, so you'd save a further $40 per year by only having to go there twice. And if you opted for the OEM oil filter when you go, they also add $3-10 to the price (even though their house brand is a very good filter, the Kralinator which is identical to NAPA Gold and Wix, so it's probably better than most of the OEM filters they offer and charge you extra for!!)

It still boggles my mind how much they charge for an oil change though! And if you drive by one of these locations on the weekend, it's packed with people waiting in line to get their oil done! Maybe I should open up my own fast lube shop, but offer up the premium synthetics too.

[ January 09, 2004, 10:18 AM: Message edited by: Patman ]

 

[Matt89]

Pablo, Toomany;

I'm not implying you guys are off base on the environmental aspect of long drains...just that it's a funny thing that some people get wound up about it when there are cheaper & easier choices that they can make to have an impact for the planet.

I think people should go the distance if they have a quality PAO oil. Unfortunately most people (guilty as charged myself) don't get their money's worth out of it...

 

[Patman]

quote:

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Originally posted by Matt89:
Pablo, Toomany;

I'm not implying you guys are off base on the environmental aspect of long drains...just that it's a funny thing that some people get wound up about it when there are cheaper & easier choices that they can make to have an impact for the planet.

I think people should go the distance if they have a quality PAO oil. Unfortunately most people (guilty as charged myself) don't get their money's worth out of it...

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I am definitely guilty of this. I've done oil changes much more frequently than I've needed to, and a lot of that has been due to me changing brands and my addiction to seeing my UOA results sooner!

I will be going to 10,000km intervals for the next little while in my car, and am most likely going to be extending that to 15,000km next year. Considering my hard driving, that's probably a safe upper limit for me. If I didn't get stuck in so much stop and go traffic, I'd probably be able to extend it to 20,000km in my car.

 

[Pablo]

FWIW - I've NEVER used an oil all the way to complete death.. (the oil, not the engine)...although the 13 month 20K test was close....that oil could have gone another few K miles. Interestingly - now that we have completely changed our lifestyle (overused word), that same car gets maybe 5K a year almost all city. (Now there's something else we should study - transitioning driving types and effects on engine oil, etc

)

 

[pinoy99]

IMO, the problem with extended drain associated with synthetic is the fear of warranty coverage. If your recommended OCI is 3k/5k severe/normal then you lose $$ using expensive synthetic but if the OCI is >= 7.5k miles then one is ahead of the game on all front.

TooSlick must be remembering the Staten Island land fill/Linden co-generation plants/Pulaski skyway underground fire funky odors

North/South Jersey debate - both have bad/good qualities. Grew up one one, now living on the other side and don't hate/regret being on both sides. North, especially the Hudson counties have the excellent view/access of Manhattan. South Jersey is close to Philly(but Central City is not Manhattan). Traffic wise, North is much worse but Rt295/73 is no picnic either. Still a lot of farm land south but Warren & other northwest counties do too.

 

[Patman]

quote:

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Originally posted by quadrun1:

quote:

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Originally posted by buster:

The reality is for 99.9% of the cars on the road today, a dino oil is absolutely fine for long engine life.

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Don't exaggerate! Certain cars MUST have synthetic, like the Corvette. These cars constitute more than 0.1% of the vehicles on the road.

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Probably not actually, since they only make about 30,000 Corvettes per year, so compare that to the number of other vehicles built in a given year, Corvettes probably do make up less than 0.5% of the vehicles out there.

 

[MikeySoft]

This may be off topic but I look at the UOAs I do and reading this web site as a hobby. Maybe what I do is not the most cost efficient thing but most hobbies are not cost efficient. I like doing OCI for my 03 Honda around 7k miles, which is 30% sooner then Honda recommends for my driving style. I seem to be doing 7k OCIs no mater if I’m using dino or syn.

Part of my hobby is telling people who insists on 3k OCI is that they are wasting their money.

 

[flynavydiesel]

I am one of those guys driving a big old diesel pickup, tow a 7,000lb travel trailer, and it has a 15 qt sump. I went synthetic because the idea of dropping 15qts of oil every 3,000 miles seemed ridiculos!!! If you go to any of the diesel websites there are people on their who do the 3,000 mile change religiously. Look at all the wasted oil!!! I went 5000 miles on Shell's Rotella T 15W40 even towing which would qualify for severe service schedule. The UOA bore that the oil was fine at that interval. The amsoil I am running now has gone 8500 and is still in.

I definitely think we could save a lot of money and waste product by realistically going to extended OCI's on all vehicles. Just my .02 worth

 

[TooSlick]

Patman,

Here's a not-so big secret ...

You can safely run 12,000 km/6 month oil change intervals with any decent GP III synthetic, like the Petro Canada, Duron 5w-40, the XL-7500, etc.
You can certainly run at least this long with any of the Mobil 1 formulations ....

With the top tier, PAO and/or Ester synthetics, you can safely run at least 16,000 km/1 year, if you do a filter change after six months. Almost no one in Europe changes their own oil, and synthetics have a market share of approx 30%. The same thing will happen in N. America in the next 5-10 years. In fact, I think the cheapest oil you will be able to buy in 5-10 years will be a GP III basestock, or something like the Schaeffers S7000, PAO/petroleum blend.

US and Japaness auto manufacturers would like to go to 10k-15k drains, like they have in Europe - in fact GM has been pushing for this very hard. Once that happens, it's goodby to petroleum oils in newer cars. All the German manufacturers and high end domestic cars like the Corvette and Viper already specify synthetics. If you don't think so, try finding any petroleum oil that meets VW 502, Vw 505.01, BMW "Longlife" or Mercedes 229.5. It's even hard to find any synthetic blends that meet most of these European specs ....

Mandating synlubes gives you much more flexibility in engine/transmission design, since you can allow them to run hotter, eliminate the oil cooler, decrease the sump capacity and make the front end more aerodynamic - without worrying about air flow over the engine/transmission. Increased engine temps means higher thermal efficiency, lower exhaust emissions, and improved fuel efficiency. So these future changes are inevitable ....

The game is already over for "dino" lubes, it's just that most folks don't realize it yet ....

 

[ToyotaNSaturn]

quote:

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Originally posted by TooSlick:
The game is already over for "dino" lubes, it's just that most folks don't realize it yet ....

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TooSlick, I agree with you that the market is headed that way, but price is the key factor. Making an M1 or GC or Chevron Synth available for $1-$2/qt is the only way to push the market to synth.

I know of no one that spends more than $29.99 for an oil change. Spending $49.99+ on a synth change at Jiffy Lube seems ludicrous to them. If the current synth oils were to come down to what we now see in the $1-$2 per qt range, things will change. Until then, dino oil is it.

Counter-point...what will happen to the profits of the oil companies if the price of synth's is pushed down? What products will be offered at the current $4-$5/qt level for "premium" oil? If the oil companies are going to lose profitability, I just don't see synth's dominating the market as quickly as they could.