The Bottom Line On Oil

[buster]

If anyone has read Patman's thread below it should confirm what many others have said all along. http://theoildrop.server101.com/ubb/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic;f=1;t=004953

The reality is for 99.9% of the cars on the road today, a dino oil is absolutely fine for long engine life. As long as you change it often, say 3-6k miles, you will be able to get high mileage out of your vehicle.

Synthetics are great for their intended purpose, which I believe are extended drains and performance cars. We've seen some proof that even the LS1 on a Mobil 1 diet can hit 300k miles.


UOA's - I think most of us are wasting our time comparing oils to other oils. For the fun of it, its great, but I really think UOA's should be just a suppliment to your annual or bi anual tune up to give you an idea of what is going on with your engine. Comparing wear metals of 3ppm to 8ppm is insignificant and could be from a variety of things. Truck Fleets need used oil analysis so it makes sense for the exteded drains, initially and to monitor. Race teams also benefit from UOA's. Most likely you will get in a car accident or sell the car before you will ever have to worry about oil.

Last but not least, I don't think engines wear out from using cheap oil. Maybe around 1,000,000 miles they will, but not for most of us. Too many peopel have had cars with 200K + miles on them with the cheapest oil and have gotten significant mileage out of them. And most of the time when we see a bad UOA, guess what?...it ain't the oils fault.

With all that said, I will still be testing different oils bc I'm addicted to it!!

[ January 08, 2004, 05:48 PM: Message edited by: buster ]

 

[totttalled]

Yes, a sound arguement but I can't stay away from this site nontheless.

 

[turbochem]

Guess we can dismantle the site now???

 

[Pablo]

It's the waste oil that is the problem. If everyone would/could go to 10-15K the stream of waste oil would be cut proportionally. Just an added thought.

Also I want to see all the 300K V6 Toyotas on dino and 7.5K intervals...

 

[wulimaster]

There are many reasons to use synthetic over dino.

The main one is COST.

It cost more to use dino over the long run than to run synthetic.

The hidden costs are:

1. MPG lower
2. valve train wear and maintenance (more frequent lash adjustments needed),
3. labor (oil change labor) assume extended OCI with synthetic
4. More filter changes.
5. Pollution, more oil filters endup in landfills
6. Pollution, more oil burned in combustion
7. less life on PCV, O2 sensors, cats
8. Price (if extended OCI are used for synthetic)
9. Higher emissions


I posted before about a test done by a small businessman on his fleet of 8 4x4s in Texas. Oil changes at 3k dino and 5k synthetic. Synthetic in 1/2 trannys and rears.

Results were that fuel economy alone resulted in savings over dino.

Other savings were 4 rebuilt engines by 225k miles (wouldn't pass emissions from burning to much oil.)
4 rebuilt trannys by 250k miles. High oil consumption with dino near the end.

At 425k he had sold the business and only had replaced the torque convertor on one of the synthetic trannys and the synthetic engines were still passing emissions.

This was with Mobil 1. The vehicles were 1994 models and accumulated the mileage in a little over 5 years.

With group II oils now out the dino vehicles might have faired a little better.

Anyone who does a AutoRx on a dino run vehicle and gets increased fuel economy afterwards can attribute this to restoring the vehicle back to its original mpg and getting back lost fuel economy.

 

[nick778]

Perhaps so. And the person who eats anything, smokes, uses drugs and doesn't exercise may only live to 50 instead of 75. If one is interested in getting the 'most' oil for their money and application and having their engine is the best shape, I think dino vs synthetic, UOAs and comparisons do yield useful information for making these decisions. An engine could probably run on olive oil or someone's used oil and last over the warranty period though. Then there are those folks who smoke their entire lives and live until 105.

 

[quadrun1]

quote:

---

Originally posted by buster:

The reality is for 99.9% of the cars on the road today, a dino oil is absolutely fine for long engine life.

---

Don't exaggerate! Certain cars MUST have synthetic, like the Corvette. These cars constitute more than 0.1% of the vehicles on the road.

 

[Motorbike]

quote:

---

Originally posted by Pablo:
It's the waste oil that is the problem.

---

That and the ........ API

 

[Tyrolkid]

I agree Buster. I just don't carry enough weight on this board to make any difference

 

[m2pc]

The engine in my car is known to be prone to sludge. I have seen UOA with a good synthetic showed that it started to degrade by 7.5k in this type of engine. How would a dino hold up in this engine? Dunno, but your right, if I changed it at 3k I would probably be ok, but I'm at 3k now and I'm glad I have a synthetic so I don't have to crawn under my car this weekend when the high is 11 F.

I guess I could pay someone to change it, but I'd have to drop it off or wait and the cost ends up being the same or more.

So I guess its a choice, my friends think I'm overdoing it, but it makes me sleep better at night

 

[novadude]

quote:

---

Don't exaggerate! Certain cars MUST have synthetic, like the Corvette. These cars constitute more than 0.1% of the vehicles on the road.

---

That is wrong. Tell me why a Corvette MUST have synthetic. I see no sound mechanical reason for this to be a true statement.

The original post is on target, IMO.

 

[ryansride2017]

Posted by Pablo,

"It's the waste oil that is the problem. If everyone would/could go to 10-15K the stream of waste oil would be cut proportionally. Just an added thought."

With all due respect, I have heard this argument several times (also from Patman) but it doesn't quite make sense. Hopefully all of the people who make claims about the large quantities of waste oils are driving 4 cylinder toyotas and hondas (I believe Patman has an LS1). FAR MORE petroleum is wasted from driving SUV's and other v-8's than the miniscule amount wasted by changing your oil often.

I AM NOT one who says no one should own an SUV or V-8 powered sports car....but just get annoyed when one complains about oil waste (and works for Amsoil)but doesn't drive automobiles that get 35+ mpg (conflict of interest?). Do all employees of Amsoil who complain about the "massive" amount of waste oil drive econo cars?....I seriously doubt it. Let the quality of Amsoil oils stand on their own.

I don't mean to start a flame session...but the comment did start my fire.

 

[TooSlick]

There's really no point to debate Buster about this stuff, since he'll change his mind 3-4 times before the week is out....

I sometimes wonder if he's trying to convince himself - or other people?

Of course, it could be from simply breathing that NJ air too long. When I used to drive off Long Island, I wouldn't switch off of re-circ until I hit the Maryland State line

 

[TooSlick]

Extended drain, PAO/Ester synthetic lubes reduce oil and oil filter waste, improve fuel efficiency by 2% to 5%, and significantly reduce exhaust emissions, due to less oil being burned. They also increase the life of spark plugs, along with all your emissions system components like Ox sensors, Cat Cons and EGR valves....

For the past 25 years, I've averaged about 15,000 miles between oil changes on seven different vehicles. I've never come close to wearing one of them out ....

It's all good

 

[nick778]

Perhaps Buster was just having one of those 'nothing matters' moments like why make your bed in the morning since it will just get messed up when you back to bed at night.

 

[Matt89]

Buster raises an interesting point. And actually, this site in a lot of ways discourages people from pursuing longer drains with top-quality oils.

If I say "Hey, I'm going to run XYZ SL 5W-20 oil for 3,750 miles in my Honda" people generally agree that I'll have no problems with that. If I say, "Hey, I'm going to run Amsoil and drain it once a year", now I've got 101 different opinions on whether Smilin' Al is on crack, whether I'll need to change the filter or not, or what viscosity I have to have to survive this drain interval. Same thing to a lesser extent if I said I was going to go with Mobil1 for 7500 or 10K. Next thing is analysis and worrying about oil performance (exactly what I'd be hoping to eliminate by going to a top quality oil at longer intervals!).

I wonder if half the "problems" associated with dino oils (for cleanliness or emissions) even apply anymore given the better Group II stocks, better volatility numbers etc.

 

[Matt89]

In response to Ryansride2017;

Right on, bro. I've always thought the "environmental" argument by Amsoil kind of takes advantage of making people feel guilty.

If people really wanted to save the earth they'd make conscious life choices that minimized the need to drive their car.

Not to mention all the electricity consumed by BITOG users in discussing these things

 

[Robbie Alexander]

quote:

---

Originally posted by wulimaster:
There are many reasons to use synthetic over dino.

The main one is COST.-*-*

---

I snipped most of what you posted because although may be true in part I don't wanna go line by line to comment here.
First, In my example and others that are out there, your statements are just not true for ALL dino's. Now if you want to include all OTC dino's or most dino's will give longer drains, okay, fine! But to say that a Dino can not approach the same extended drains for much less money, or even the same money or even with not much difference in cost.. is not true.

BTW what does it cost you to run your SYNthetic oil for 20K or 50K or 100K, including all UOA's if you do those. And when you normally change the oil, is it about toast or does it have plenty of life left, and what is plenty, 5K.

There are dino's out there that in most every day applications will yield you and on a regular basis, at least 10K, and if you are like a lot here, willing to push the envelope, 20-30K+, add a bypass, and who knows.

In fact I would guess, you could give me ANY OTC dino oil out there, and I could figure a way to run it cheaper than a SYN (at least the premium syn say like a M1 and up). Yes, there are applications for SYN, and I can't wait until I can start using one... and for me, I vote with my pocketbook.

 

[TooSlick]

Matt,

One of the key reasons why extended drain synlubes haven't completely taken over the market is that oil companies make much more money with 3000 mile/20,000 oil changes and low fuel efficiency, in both gas engines and commercial diesel engines, respectively.

Vehicle manufacturers of all types are also not keen about making their engines,transmissions, diffs, wheel bearings,PS systems, etc last significantly longer w/ synlubes ....

The customer is the ONLY one who benefits from Amsoil, Redline, Delvac 1, etc - not ExxonMobil, Chevron,BP or Shell ....

 

[Patman]

quote:

---

Originally posted by novadude:

quote:

---

Don't exaggerate! Certain cars MUST have synthetic, like the Corvette. These cars constitute more than 0.1% of the vehicles on the road.

---

That is wrong. Tell me why a Corvette MUST have synthetic. I see no sound mechanical reason for this to be a true statement.

The original post is on target, IMO.

---

The LS1 engine in the Corvette doesn't absolutely need synthetic by any means, since the f-bodies LS1 engine is virtually identical (only a slightly different camshaft, and drive by wire throttle body in the Vette and a different oil pan) but yet the f-body LS1 doesn't require synthetics. I know many guys running conventional in their LS1 f-body with no problems, some of them well over 100k now, even with some autocrossing and road racing, believe it or not.

But I do believe synthetics offer a better chance at a long life in a hard driven LS1. The LS1 run hard on dino oil might only make it to 150k while the synthetic run one would make it much higher.

Even though dino oils can get people a long engine life, I still think synthetics have a lot of benefits. For one, they'll show lower engine wear for those of us who drive very hard, or race a lot in hot weather. They'll also keep the engine cleaner, which means as the engine gets older, it's MPG will not drop as much, and it's emissions and performance will be more consistent. Engines running synthetic oil will also start up much easier in extreme cold, and in turn this means those people who drive their cars a lot in this kind of cold weather can expect longer life than if they had run that engine on dino oil, which has cold cranking performance which is not only not as good, but also degrades much faster than synthetics do.

And let's not forget the biggest feature of all, the fact that synthetics can go much longer drain intervals than conventionals.