TGMO in new Honda turbos?
- Thread starter BTLew81
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If it is the high moly version, I wouldn't use it in a turbo because of the turbo deposits moly may cause. TEOST 33C is the simulated turbo test and that's where high moly has caused deposits. I don't know whether deposits also cause deposits in actual turbos but I wouldn't want to risk it.
Originally Posted by JAG
If it is the high moly version, I wouldn't use it in a turbo because of the turbo deposits moly may cause. TEOST 33C is the simulated turbo test and that's where high moly has caused deposits. I don't know whether deposits also cause deposits in actual turbos but I wouldn't want to risk it.
Do you know what form of moly causes deposits?
If it is the high moly version, I wouldn't use it in a turbo because of the turbo deposits moly may cause. TEOST 33C is the simulated turbo test and that's where high moly has caused deposits. I don't know whether deposits also cause deposits in actual turbos but I wouldn't want to risk it.
Do you know what form of moly causes deposits?
Toyota refomulated their 0W20 oil for use in the 2015 Lexus NXT2.0 turbo to address LSPI (lower calcium) .
Originally Posted by SnowDrifter
Originally Posted by JAG
If it is the high moly version, I wouldn't use it in a turbo because of the turbo deposits moly may cause. TEOST 33C is the simulated turbo test and that's where high moly has caused deposits. I don't know whether deposits also cause deposits in actual turbos but I wouldn't want to risk it.
Do you know what form of moly causes deposits?
MoDTC. Carbide deposits form.
Originally Posted by JAG
If it is the high moly version, I wouldn't use it in a turbo because of the turbo deposits moly may cause. TEOST 33C is the simulated turbo test and that's where high moly has caused deposits. I don't know whether deposits also cause deposits in actual turbos but I wouldn't want to risk it.
Do you know what form of moly causes deposits?
MoDTC. Carbide deposits form.
Originally Posted by Dan55
Toyota refomulated their 0W20 oil for use in the 2015 Lexus NXT2.0 turbo to address LSPI (lower calcium) .
Yes, just like dexos1, SN+, & GF-6 address it. And, notice Toyota-Lexus doesn't want any turbochargers getting deposits, and they know the high moly in Toyota Genuine Motor Oil 0w20 is not a problem.
Note the teost test is a bench test, not a real turbo test. Does it correlate with actual turbos? No.
In fact there was a recent 2017 engineering study which showed the Teost test was at too high a temperature, higher than what real turbo oils experience, and the newer GMTC (General Motors Turbocharger Coking) oxidation test better predicted turbo deposits. High moly is not a problem.
"Concern about turbocharger deposits is not a new phenomenon, however. In the early 1990s the TEOST 33C bench test was developed to simulate turbocharger coking, and early studies showed a correlation between TEOST 33C results and field issues. A comparison of the TEOST 33C bench test and the GMTC engine test revealed no such correlation between the two tests under the conditions studied. Due to this lack of correlation, a comparison of TEOST 33C response with turbocharger deposits generated during field operation was performed." -- https://www.sae.org/publications/technical-papers/content/2017-01-2341/
"Vehicle Tests
Two oils with very different Mo content were tested in Las Vegas taxis for about 194K km (120K miles). Figure 10 illustrates that these two different Mo containing oils generated very different levels of TEOST 33C deposits. The high Mo containing oil (about 7X Mo) had much higher TEOST 33C total deposits and failed the requirement in current ILSAC GF-5 and API SN specifications. The lower Mo content oil (1X Mo), on the other hand, passed the TEOST 33C requirement.
The same two oils tested in the field showed excellent high temperature stability and viscosity control, very good oxidation control, and excellent wear metal performance (data not shown). End of test engine inspections were performed and the average engine sludge data are shown in Figure 11. Both oils demonstrated excellent sludge control.
To determine if there was a difference in turbocharger deposits, for one vehicle running on each oil, end of test average merit ratings of the turbocharger parts were also rated (also shown in Figure 11). No significant average merit rating difference was observed. The results support the observation that there is no relationship between gasoline turbocharger cleanliness performance in a vehicle and deposit tendency in the TEOST 33C test. " ------ https://www.thefreelibrary.com/Engi...harger+Protection+and+the...-a0532023053
Toyota refomulated their 0W20 oil for use in the 2015 Lexus NXT2.0 turbo to address LSPI (lower calcium) .
Yes, just like dexos1, SN+, & GF-6 address it. And, notice Toyota-Lexus doesn't want any turbochargers getting deposits, and they know the high moly in Toyota Genuine Motor Oil 0w20 is not a problem.
Note the teost test is a bench test, not a real turbo test. Does it correlate with actual turbos? No.
In fact there was a recent 2017 engineering study which showed the Teost test was at too high a temperature, higher than what real turbo oils experience, and the newer GMTC (General Motors Turbocharger Coking) oxidation test better predicted turbo deposits. High moly is not a problem.
"Concern about turbocharger deposits is not a new phenomenon, however. In the early 1990s the TEOST 33C bench test was developed to simulate turbocharger coking, and early studies showed a correlation between TEOST 33C results and field issues. A comparison of the TEOST 33C bench test and the GMTC engine test revealed no such correlation between the two tests under the conditions studied. Due to this lack of correlation, a comparison of TEOST 33C response with turbocharger deposits generated during field operation was performed." -- https://www.sae.org/publications/technical-papers/content/2017-01-2341/
"Vehicle Tests
Two oils with very different Mo content were tested in Las Vegas taxis for about 194K km (120K miles). Figure 10 illustrates that these two different Mo containing oils generated very different levels of TEOST 33C deposits. The high Mo containing oil (about 7X Mo) had much higher TEOST 33C total deposits and failed the requirement in current ILSAC GF-5 and API SN specifications. The lower Mo content oil (1X Mo), on the other hand, passed the TEOST 33C requirement.
The same two oils tested in the field showed excellent high temperature stability and viscosity control, very good oxidation control, and excellent wear metal performance (data not shown). End of test engine inspections were performed and the average engine sludge data are shown in Figure 11. Both oils demonstrated excellent sludge control.
To determine if there was a difference in turbocharger deposits, for one vehicle running on each oil, end of test average merit ratings of the turbocharger parts were also rated (also shown in Figure 11). No significant average merit rating difference was observed. The results support the observation that there is no relationship between gasoline turbocharger cleanliness performance in a vehicle and deposit tendency in the TEOST 33C test. " ------ https://www.thefreelibrary.com/Engi...harger+Protection+and+the...-a0532023053
Originally Posted by BTLew81
I have a friend who has a newly purchased stash of this oil that he wants to get rid of. Any thoughts in using it in the car noted in my signature?
The moly isn't a problem for the turbo as I've mentioned above, but you've got to carefully watch for fuel dilution in Honda turbos these days. (Recalls in China, lawsuits in the U.S. forming, if you haven't heard.) People on this forum report fuel dilution problems with the 1.5T Honda engine as well as the 2.0T, so just watch for it. Based on all that, for the winter go ahead and use the spec Toyota 0w20, because thin in winter is not really a problem, .....but for the summer you might want to use a 0w30 or 5w30 to counter fuel dilution effects when there is also a lot of ambient heat cooking the engine.
I have a friend who has a newly purchased stash of this oil that he wants to get rid of. Any thoughts in using it in the car noted in my signature?
The moly isn't a problem for the turbo as I've mentioned above, but you've got to carefully watch for fuel dilution in Honda turbos these days. (Recalls in China, lawsuits in the U.S. forming, if you haven't heard.) People on this forum report fuel dilution problems with the 1.5T Honda engine as well as the 2.0T, so just watch for it. Based on all that, for the winter go ahead and use the spec Toyota 0w20, because thin in winter is not really a problem, .....but for the summer you might want to use a 0w30 or 5w30 to counter fuel dilution effects when there is also a lot of ambient heat cooking the engine.
wemay
Site Donor 2023
Originally Posted by oil_film_movies
Originally Posted by Dan55
Toyota refomulated their 0W20 oil for use in the 2015 Lexus NXT2.0 turbo to address LSPI (lower calcium) .
Yes, just like dexos1, SN+, & GF-6 address it. And, notice Toyota-Lexus doesn't want any turbochargers getting deposits, and they know the high moly in Toyota Genuine Motor Oil 0w20 is not a problem.
Note the teost test is a bench test, not a real turbo test. Does it correlate with actual turbos? No.
In fact there was a recent 2017 engineering study which showed the Teost test was at too high a temperature, higher than what real turbo oils experience, and the newer GMTC (General Motors Turbocharger Coking) oxidation test better predicted turbo deposits. High moly is not a problem.
"Concern about turbocharger deposits is not a new phenomenon, however. In the early 1990s the TEOST 33C bench test was developed to simulate turbocharger coking, and early studies showed a correlation between TEOST 33C results and field issues. A comparison of the TEOST 33C bench test and the GMTC engine test revealed no such correlation between the two tests under the conditions studied. Due to this lack of correlation, a comparison of TEOST 33C response with turbocharger deposits generated during field operation was performed." -- https://www.sae.org/publications/technical-papers/content/2017-01-2341/
"Vehicle Tests
Two oils with very different Mo content were tested in Las Vegas taxis for about 194K km (120K miles). Figure 10 illustrates that these two different Mo containing oils generated very different levels of TEOST 33C deposits. The high Mo containing oil (about 7X Mo) had much higher TEOST 33C total deposits and failed the requirement in current ILSAC GF-5 and API SN specifications. The lower Mo content oil (1X Mo), on the other hand, passed the TEOST 33C requirement.
The same two oils tested in the field showed excellent high temperature stability and viscosity control, very good oxidation control, and excellent wear metal performance (data not shown). End of test engine inspections were performed and the average engine sludge data are shown in Figure 11. Both oils demonstrated excellent sludge control.
To determine if there was a difference in turbocharger deposits, for one vehicle running on each oil, end of test average merit ratings of the turbocharger parts were also rated (also shown in Figure 11). No significant average merit rating difference was observed. The results support the observation that there is no relationship between gasoline turbocharger cleanliness performance in a vehicle and deposit tendency in the TEOST 33C test. " ------ https://www.thefreelibrary.com/Engi...harger+Protection+and+the...-a0532023053
Thanks for this. New information to me as i too was going to question the Moly content / TEOST33 test.
Originally Posted by Dan55
Toyota refomulated their 0W20 oil for use in the 2015 Lexus NXT2.0 turbo to address LSPI (lower calcium) .
Yes, just like dexos1, SN+, & GF-6 address it. And, notice Toyota-Lexus doesn't want any turbochargers getting deposits, and they know the high moly in Toyota Genuine Motor Oil 0w20 is not a problem.
Note the teost test is a bench test, not a real turbo test. Does it correlate with actual turbos? No.
In fact there was a recent 2017 engineering study which showed the Teost test was at too high a temperature, higher than what real turbo oils experience, and the newer GMTC (General Motors Turbocharger Coking) oxidation test better predicted turbo deposits. High moly is not a problem.
"Concern about turbocharger deposits is not a new phenomenon, however. In the early 1990s the TEOST 33C bench test was developed to simulate turbocharger coking, and early studies showed a correlation between TEOST 33C results and field issues. A comparison of the TEOST 33C bench test and the GMTC engine test revealed no such correlation between the two tests under the conditions studied. Due to this lack of correlation, a comparison of TEOST 33C response with turbocharger deposits generated during field operation was performed." -- https://www.sae.org/publications/technical-papers/content/2017-01-2341/
"Vehicle Tests
Two oils with very different Mo content were tested in Las Vegas taxis for about 194K km (120K miles). Figure 10 illustrates that these two different Mo containing oils generated very different levels of TEOST 33C deposits. The high Mo containing oil (about 7X Mo) had much higher TEOST 33C total deposits and failed the requirement in current ILSAC GF-5 and API SN specifications. The lower Mo content oil (1X Mo), on the other hand, passed the TEOST 33C requirement.
The same two oils tested in the field showed excellent high temperature stability and viscosity control, very good oxidation control, and excellent wear metal performance (data not shown). End of test engine inspections were performed and the average engine sludge data are shown in Figure 11. Both oils demonstrated excellent sludge control.
To determine if there was a difference in turbocharger deposits, for one vehicle running on each oil, end of test average merit ratings of the turbocharger parts were also rated (also shown in Figure 11). No significant average merit rating difference was observed. The results support the observation that there is no relationship between gasoline turbocharger cleanliness performance in a vehicle and deposit tendency in the TEOST 33C test. " ------ https://www.thefreelibrary.com/Engi...harger+Protection+and+the...-a0532023053
Thanks for this. New information to me as i too was going to question the Moly content / TEOST33 test.
Originally Posted by wemay
Thanks for this. New information to me as i too was going to question the Moly content / TEOST33 test.
It surprised me when I saw the study, and I think it might be because of all the thermal siphoning and overall water cooling of modern turbos. When they created the TEOST test back 20 years ago, they chose very (too high) high temperatures to simulate a turbo environment.
Originally Posted by BrandonT
I'm confused, the study you cite does say high Moly caused deposits at a much higher rate in the real world test?
The study basically found out that a high-moly oil like the Toyota 0w20 here does fail the TEOST bench test but passes a Vegas taxi 120,000 mile turbo test quite well. Therefore, for the underlying reasons they stated earlier, high moly oils do just fine in turbo engines these days.
Thanks for this. New information to me as i too was going to question the Moly content / TEOST33 test.
It surprised me when I saw the study, and I think it might be because of all the thermal siphoning and overall water cooling of modern turbos. When they created the TEOST test back 20 years ago, they chose very (too high) high temperatures to simulate a turbo environment.
Originally Posted by BrandonT
I'm confused, the study you cite does say high Moly caused deposits at a much higher rate in the real world test?
The study basically found out that a high-moly oil like the Toyota 0w20 here does fail the TEOST bench test but passes a Vegas taxi 120,000 mile turbo test quite well. Therefore, for the underlying reasons they stated earlier, high moly oils do just fine in turbo engines these days.
Lets be honest. The Vegas Taxi test is good marketing spin, but in reality probably the easiest test to pass. Taxi's never stop, never cold start, are never driven hard, are always serviced, but do suffer alot of idle time. Regardless of the ambient temp, the engine thermostat will keep the engine at it's ideal operating temp. So Vegas in the summer or Anchorage in the winter doesn't matter. An engine that never turns off will always be at operating temp.
Much like anything: 'to much of a good thing is bad for you'
The same holds true for oil additives, it's a fine balance.
Regards
Jordan
Much like anything: 'to much of a good thing is bad for you'
The same holds true for oil additives, it's a fine balance.
Regards
Jordan
Originally Posted by JFAllen
Lets be honest. The Vegas Taxi test is good marketing spin, but in reality probably the easiest test to pass. Taxi's never stop, never cold start, are never driven hard, are always serviced, but do suffer alot of idle time. Regardless of the ambient temp, the engine thermostat will keep the engine at it's ideal operating temp. So Vegas in the summer or Anchorage in the winter doesn't matter. An engine that never turns off will always be at operating temp.
Much like anything: 'to much of a good thing is bad for you'
The same holds true for oil additives, it's a fine balance.
Regards
Jordan
The only test Vegas taxis can pass is charging too much
we've
participated in that test many times and now always rent a car when we go there!
As far as tgmo, it is a very good oil. Can't see your signature. Check your OM for the oil grade.
Lets be honest. The Vegas Taxi test is good marketing spin, but in reality probably the easiest test to pass. Taxi's never stop, never cold start, are never driven hard, are always serviced, but do suffer alot of idle time. Regardless of the ambient temp, the engine thermostat will keep the engine at it's ideal operating temp. So Vegas in the summer or Anchorage in the winter doesn't matter. An engine that never turns off will always be at operating temp.
Much like anything: 'to much of a good thing is bad for you'
The same holds true for oil additives, it's a fine balance.
Regards
Jordan
The only test Vegas taxis can pass is charging too much
participated in that test many times and now always rent a car when we go there!
As far as tgmo, it is a very good oil. Can't see your signature. Check your OM for the oil grade.
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