Testing a Test of Tests for Tests

[GaryPoe]

So I was just reading some uoa's and a ProjectFarm video came to mind. If a guy purchsed 2 identicle brand new engines, (small 4 cycle single cylinder lawn mower type) and put them side by side at the same "red lined" rpm, ultimately running the engines until destructuon.
What 2 oil viscosities would you chose. Thin oil vs thick oil (0w20vs15w40)?
What "single" brand would you pick? it has to be agreeable with everyone else cause its a one shot kinda deal.
Note: Not saying this "test" will ever happen! but I will drop a line to PF at least so its not out of the question i suppose...
Anything to add? Thoughts?

 

[Chris142]

"Redline" on smaller engines is usually only 3600 rpm. Being air cooled a thicker oil may let one last a few minutes longer than say a 0w16. If I was running one wide open like you say I would choose a straight 40 mineral oil.

 

[RayCJ]

One of the problems with Project Farm is the lack of adequate test samples. I've seen a handful of Project Farm's "side-by-side" tests and ones I saw were woefully incomplete. Sadly, many people are putting 100% of their faith into tests seemingly only capable of giving a 50/50 chance of being precise. I'm actually surprised he's not being sued by now and being forced to issue retractions.

Anyhow... What you propose with a single test like that is a fun idea but, it's statistically meaningless and has a 50% chance of being 100% wrong.

Project farm would need 10 or 12 motors of the same brand & model, coming from different manufacturer lot numbers then, take several samples of each oil coming from different lot numbers and then one can derive more meaningful results. There are many ways of devising various cross-combinations of tests to get a get a result that has a shred of credibility.

Aside from that, I hope he selects your test as it would be nifty bragging rights here on this forum.

Ray

 

[SubieRubyRoo]

Originally Posted by RayCJ
I'm actually surprised he's not being sued by now and being forced to issue retractions.


How exactly could he be sued?? He very directly follows the manufacturer's instructions on each product for dosing; carries out a detailed, repeatable schedule of testing methodology; presents before, during, and after photographic and video proof; and tests all products on the same engine after performing an identical cleansing routine to establish and re-establish a baseline. Sure, his methodology may not be optimal for what should be occurring by the manufacturer of all the additives, cleaners, and other fluids he tests, but at least he's working to give some kind of results. While not 100% (nothing is, BTW), his results are a lot more beneficial to the general knowledge base than your "I haven't done anything for the community, but I think we should sue him penniless for attempting to expose snake oil peddlers and possibly save someone a heartache" mentality. I agree that an air-cooled, single-cylinder engine does not provide the best corollary to an automobile engine, but it is an ICE and the Briggs engine has been around for decades, so there are some valid comparisons.

So much for the 1st Amendment....

 

[kschachn]

Originally Posted by GaryPoe
Anything to add? Thoughts?

Yes. This would be a worthless test to demonstrate any useful and statistically relevant property of the motor oil, just like the rest of the "tests" that Project Farm does.

Why are people so suckered in by ignorant drama rather than relevance?

 

[thescreensavers]

A lot of his videos are entertaining to watch but depending on the test are for sure statistically baseless.

He does put his best effort forward in doing these tests in his garage, and is open to improve his method if he is wrong. So kudos to him on that.

 

[GaryPoe]

I think there should be a 3rd engine running the appropiate grade reccomended as a base. The theory of my not so scientific test that has been running in countless threads on this site is that a vehicle designed to run a specific oil, say 10w30, and people want to put in thinner oil that may or may not be reccomended by the vehicle's manufacturer, say 0w20. Then theres the other end of the spectrum, people claim that a 15w40 would pretect the engine far superior than the 10w30. For an exame, the 5.0 coyote specs 5w20 in most mustangs and f150 trucks, where as the track pack mustangs spec 5w50. At wide open throttle what engine would shell first? Would one oil keep the engine cooler at wot? What would be the failure point? Theres a lot of questions to ask, and like i said, its not really scientific, but it would be fun to watch at very least...

 

[Rand]

Originally Posted by GaryPoe
So I was just reading some uoa's and a ProjectFarm video came to mind. If a guy purchsed 2 identicle brand new engines, (small 4 cycle single cylinder lawn mower type) and put them side by side at the same "red lined" rpm, ultimately running the engines until destructuon.
What 2 oil viscosities would you chose. Thin oil vs thick oil (0w20vs15w40)?
What "single" brand would you pick? it has to be agreeable with everyone else cause its a one shot kinda deal.
Note: Not saying this "test" will ever happen! but I will drop a line to PF at least so its not out of the question i suppose...
Anything to add? Thoughts?



Worthless test.. there is minimal no load , normal engines are governed to about 3600rpm, and this reflects real life in no way.

A proper engine on a mower with a load of actually cutting grass(with our without self propel) lasts at a min hundreds of hours.

So by testing an engine outside of its design limits.. an engine that might have lasted 20 years can break.

Its kind of like saying which smart phone resists breakage better and hitting it with a hammer..

 

[jeepman3071]

Originally Posted by Rand
Originally Posted by GaryPoe
So I was just reading some uoa's and a ProjectFarm video came to mind. If a guy purchsed 2 identicle brand new engines, (small 4 cycle single cylinder lawn mower type) and put them side by side at the same "red lined" rpm, ultimately running the engines until destructuon.
What 2 oil viscosities would you chose. Thin oil vs thick oil (0w20vs15w40)?
What "single" brand would you pick? it has to be agreeable with everyone else cause its a one shot kinda deal.
Note: Not saying this "test" will ever happen! but I will drop a line to PF at least so its not out of the question i suppose...
Anything to add? Thoughts?



Worthless test.. there is minimal no load , normal engines are governed to about 3600rpm, and this reflects real life in no way.

A proper engine on a mower with a load of actually cutting grass(with our without self propel) lasts at a min hundreds of hours.

So by testing an engine outside of its design limits.. an engine that might have lasted 20 years can break.

Its kind of like saying which smart phone resists breakage better and hitting it with a hammer..


This.

It would be too difficult to get accurate results. As we know with cars/trucks, what happens in a controlled test environment does not mimic real life.

 

[kschachn]

Originally Posted by jeepman3071
As we know with cars/trucks, what happens in a controlled test environment does not mimic real life.

A popular sentiment but incorrect, standardized oil tests run in a laboratory do in fact mimic real life while isolating a specific variable. It is these worthless "real life" tests that do not isolate variables and are not properly analyzed using a statistically valid analysis.

The truth is that it's virtually impossible to test anything outside of a laboratory and obtain results that are worth anything. It's just that people like to see visual demonstrations even if they don't have any relevance to "real world" performance, kind of like the Lucas tester at the parts store and the wear scar machines. With the latter you get lots of noise and smoke that make it seem as though you're really getting something.

"We'll run that thing flat out until it seizes! By golly that'll be a test that will tell you what you need to know!"

 

[Linctex]

Originally Posted by GaryPoe
If a guy purchsed 2 identicle brand new engines, (small 4 cycle single cylinder lawn mower type) and put them side by side at the same "red lined" rpm, ultimately running the engines until destructuon.
What 2 oil viscosities would you chose. Thin oil vs thick oil (0w20vs15w40)?


No oil in the world will save you from stress fracturing, metal fatigue, and metallurgical deficiencies.

 

[RayCJ]

Originally Posted by SubieRubyRoo
Originally Posted by RayCJ
I'm actually surprised he's not being sued by now and being forced to issue retractions.


How exactly could he be sued?? He very directly follows the manufacturer's instructions on each product for dosing; carries out a detailed, repeatable schedule of testing methodology; presents before, during, and after photographic and video proof; and tests all products on the same engine after performing an identical cleansing routine to establish and re-establish a baseline. Sure, his methodology may not be optimal for what should be occurring by the manufacturer of all the additives, cleaners, and other fluids he tests, but at least he's working to give some kind of results. While not 100% (nothing is, BTW), his results are a lot more beneficial to the general knowledge base than your "I haven't done anything for the community, but I think we should sue him penniless for attempting to expose snake oil peddlers and possibly save someone a heartache" mentality. I agree that an air-cooled, single-cylinder engine does not provide the best corollary to an automobile engine, but it is an ICE and the Briggs engine has been around for decades, so there are some valid comparisons.

So much for the 1st Amendment....



If an automotive product manufacturer feels their product's reputation (and therefore economic bottom-line) is being unfairly and negatively impacted by someone else's statements or flawed observations, our legal system allows for redress of grievance. Of course, the grievance may or may-not have legal standing. I believe the 7th Amendment and all the legalities thereof, define the procedures for recourse and resolution. Most cases like this never go to court and end with a cease & desist order or, issuance of public statement of retraction.

I've seen a handful of those project farm demonstrations and I think the guy is entertaining. I don't really know (or care) if the products he showcases are any good or not. I do know that I witnessed demonstrations (passed-off as tests) that were as flawed as the day is long.

Yes... he seems to be pretty careful about how he phrases things -which makes me wonder if he is wittingly devising these demonstrations to be as provocative as possible. Whatever... I have no skin in this game. There's a sucker born every minute and if they're racking-up his click count, more power to him.

Now, as far as comparing automotive engines to lawn mower engines because they are both ICEs... the parallels there are akin to comparing humans to dogs because both are mammals.


Ray