Tesla Model Y 1 piece frame from GigaPress

[JHZR2]

Tesla sells a lotta cars to be considered niche. It outsells other luxury cars in most markets. By a lot...
Didn't Tesla out sell BMW in the US by many thousands of cars last year? I think Tesla is the #1 luxury brand in the US this year, by quite a bit. The Model 3 and Model Y even beat Corolla/Civic in some markets.

100% agree other companies are striving to catch up, but there is a problem. Do they have the resources? This why I speak to margins. The higher the GM, the more capital a company retains, which it can then use for other costs. Cash from operations is used for change; how many companies have the profits for development and change over? They are already stretched. The "wait for the big guys to get in" has not done much yet.
Legacy car companies are strapped to existing practices and contracts including dealer sales model and little vertical integration. Disadvantage...
And only Ford seems to be stepping up in chip firmware programming, a huge Tesla advantage. Software is the future; heck it is now.

Please explain "industrial margins". I am very familiar with finance, especially in manufacturing companies and have never heard of that. Typically gross margin and net margin are used as key measurements. Industrial margin is one I am not familiar with.

I struggle with your assessment of variability. Hundreds of assembled parts as compared to 1? From an engineering point of view, I am not sure that figures. As time goes by, good manufacturing companies continually improve processes, which I expect Tesla to do. This will only improve uniformity and performance. The Giga Cast process is an exercise in uniformity, far better than the old process. I apologize for cutting off the rest of your post; I do not mean to change your thoughts.

One has to agree; long term viability of any process, especially a new one, remains to be seen. Certainly Mr. Munro and his team are impressed with the Model Y Giga Casted frame. I would like to see a driver's comparison of old vs new.

All good. I appreciate your point of view.

I’m confused. Even you have said that it’s a toy, and part of the (almost irrelevant to the rest of the country) Silicon Valley bubble.

I consider our Tesla a toy, but so are BMWs, Vettes, Benzes, etc. Not to mention $70K pickups.
A Model 3 can be a value proposition for certain people.
I call the 3 the new Corolla around here.
I realize I live in a Silicon Valley bubble; lots of sunshine (for solar panels), lots of money, chargers everywhere, commuter lanes.

Regarding others catching up, legacy manufacturers aren’t that strapped. They invest money in tech and manufacturing too. GM is investing billions in battery factories. You’re telling me they can’t buy a press if that’s a good idea? I don’t buy it.

Regarding margins, when I said industrial margin, what I meant was margins online with the industry. At least more inline with the VW/Toyota/GMs of the world. Maybe still higher, sure, but 30% means 23% overpriced to me… and lots of other folks outside of the SV bubble you cite. And especially if unrepairable, or repairable for excessive cost becomes the reality of deploying this supposedly stiffer/cheaper process. Sounds good until it isn’t. Car companies publish repair practices. Does Tesla? Or is it just playing software company like you’ve implied? Because software only goes so far in the real physics world of motors and drives and bearings and batteries. They’ve built a good product in that regard this far. To be seen for the long run….

 

[JeffKeryk]

So wild that Tesla is literally the first company that thought of this and that noone else does it just because they're too lazy, cheap, or dumb....

Well, Tesla has been called an innovator and disrupter.

 

[DwightFrye]

I've never seen one as good as my Japanese SUV's from Mazda and Toyota. Everyone has different standards, though.

I can attest to the fit and finish quality on my Mazda CX 5 SUV. I'm not easily impressed but I decided on a CX 5 GT-Reserve model which has the 2.5L turbo engine and upgraded interior and other creature comforts when I was fully prepared to spend as much as $15,000 more for a mid-sized SUV. The Mazda was around $37k. Mazda is still a relatively small automaker but is doing a very good job with most of their models.

 

[DwightFrye]

ALL off the automakers had better be figuring out ways to increase their profits if they ever want to be competitive in the EV category. It is incredibly expensive to do what Tesla is doing but they have so much cash to invest that it hardly becomes an issue.

The mediocre EV's from most makers other than Tesla that we are seeing on the market now are for the most part the result of not having the capital to start with a blank slate and instead are trying to modify existing designs and use standard parts as much as possible. I get it, but a kludge is still a kludge.

Sandy Munro is consistently impressed by what he is seeing when he disassembles a new Tesla. That is because Tesla has the advantage in their engineering staff of younger, innovative designers who aren't constrained the same way the legacy companies are.
The best and the brightest automotive engineers all want to go to work for Tesla. The other makers may be offering competitive salaries, but I'll bet they still are having a hard time recruiting the kind of brain power that is needed over the next decade.

 

[OVERKILL]

The i4 is a futile exercise in adapting their 3 series ICE architecture to accept an EV with a metric ton of marketing, gimmicks, and eventual sales support.

The BMW CLAR platform, which most of their current offerings that are RWD/AWD are based on, was designed to be ICE/PHEV/BEV from the get-go, so the platform is not being adapted, rather, it's just having its use expanded into where it was always intended.

I'd like you to expand on these other points though, I'm curious where the marketing and gimmicks are? I saw very little marketing before I test drove both the i4 and iX, personally preferring the i4 M50.

While I might be harsh and say it wont sell, the BMW core demographic might be willing to accept it flaws (this strategy has proven worthy in other ICEV adapted for EV use).

For a first effort, its flaws seem to be a pretty short list. It has some torque-steer (too much front bias in the AWD) under hard acceleration.

The price tag is also insane for what is essential is a 3 series shell and interior.

Technically, its design aligns more closely with the 4-series (hence i4, though dimensionally it's a bit different in some respects), not a 3-series, but they share a ton of stuff as the 4-series is just a fastback version of the 3-series. The price is in-line with the Tesla Model Y for a similar level of performance, I don't see that being insane?

The weight penalty that the architeture suffers from is quite evident in a couple of performance reviews.

Yes, it's heavy. The CLAR platform isn't light, and the car has a lot of sound deadening and other material that other EV's don't, that makes it heavier still. Despite being heavy, its handling is extremely good, as is its performance.

I think munro did a review for this vehicle, and they went into some technical details to achieve a more objective take on the shortcoming.

I did a review on here, after having some seat time. It's not a Munro technical tear-down of the vehicle, just impressions from somebody who has driven numerous EV's at this point including the Model S, Model 3, Audi e-tron (which I briefly owned) and whose impressions of this vehicle were quite favourable.

Couple of threads I've made on the i4:
1. Before the test drive, we discuss CLAR, the platform, and the vehicle design:
https://bobistheoilguy.com/forums/threads/the-bmw-i4s-are-coming.352439/

2. After the test drive, we discuss the vehicle, my impressions, and my wife's:
https://bobistheoilguy.com/forums/threads/bmw-i4-m50-review.352667/

Have you driven the i4? if not, I'd highly recommend doing so.

 

[E365]

So wild that Tesla is literally the first company that thought of this and that noone else does it just because they're too lazy, cheap, or dumb....

I kinda doubt Tesla is the first company to think of it. They’re just the first company to actually commit to it.

For example, the 2016+ Cadillac CT6 uses cast pieces, also from Idra presses. They use 13 smaller ones joined together, instead of 2, but it’s the exact same theory. I bet engineers for decades have dreamed of casting whole cars, but no one would give them the “blank-check” needed to do it.

Cadillac:

 

[Vercingetorix]

I wonder if this casting can be adapted to other models. The big thing nowadays is having modular chassis to build suvs, sedans etc all from the same basic platform. Casting would seem to limit it to one model.

 

[UncleDave]

I wonder if this casting can be adapted to other models. The big thing nowadays is having modular chassis to build suvs, sedans etc all from the same basic platform. Casting would seem to limit it to one model.

They are "somewhat adaptable" in a given size window and a new set of molds.

The machine can only inject a specific amount of molten material and exert x amount of clamping force in the needed window of time - as that amount increases the size of machine appears to cube.

 

[nthach]

Rigid yes, but repairable?

I haven’t watched the video but elements that led to this have been proven. Audi and Honda had commercialized aluminum extrusions, GM started using hydroforming for the on the C6 ‘Vette and GMT800 trucks.

 

[nthach]

I kinda doubt Tesla is the first company to think of it. They’re just the first company to actually commit to it.

For example, the 2016+ Cadillac CT6 uses cast pieces, also from Idra presses. They use 13 smaller ones joined together, instead of 2, but it’s the exact same theory. I bet engineers for decades have dreamed of casting whole cars, but no one would give them the “blank-check” needed to do it.

Cadillac:
View attachment 110807

View attachment 110808

GM has gotten somewhat close with the Saturn series and the Dustbuster vans - though those were more plastic-clad space frames. I can see cast structural parts making more sense on a truck or BOF SUV to help with NVH and cost, AFAIK, how GM and Mopar build their truck front ends hasn’t changed since the 1960s - there’s no structural support between the firewall and core support, the fenders hang off the wheel well aprons and core support.

 

[IndyIan]

So wild that Tesla is literally the first company that thought of this and that noone else does it just because they're too lazy, cheap, or dumb....

I assume you're being sarcastic, but its kind of true IMO... The whole GM EV1 story shows that someone there realized that electric cars are probably going to be the majority of the market at some point, and GM might as well get ahead in the game... But they lost their nerve, and cash, and bailed out. Why should GM spend the money on getting electric vehicles right when the Malibu is probably a more logical buy for those people assuming your marketing billions can sway most of them?
Would Tesla even exist if GM kept going with EV's? Probably not.

I guess its hard for big manufacturers to imagine moving away from their current product lines, manufacturing lines, billions of R&D spent on those, and then say today is the day we are going to move onto the next set of technologies...

I think that's Musk's advantage, is that he see's what he thinks is the ideal and achievable future in a technology, and just starts working on getting there! It seems the other companies in the fields he competes in, won't, don't, or can't do that?

I kind of agree with you that huge aluminum castings aren't the best solution, but for something achievable today there are lots of advantages, which may be mostly for Tesla, not the final consumers. But no vehicles are really built to be the best long term ownership anymore.... That's not a criteria of enough new car buyers to worry about serviceability, cost of ownership outside the warranty period...

 

[UncleDave]

I assume you're being sarcastic, but its kind of true IMO... The whole GM EV1 story shows that someone there realized that electric cars are probably going to be the majority of the market at some point, and GM might as well get ahead in the game... But they lost their nerve, and cash, and bailed out. Why should GM spend the money on getting electric vehicles right when the Malibu is probably a more logical buy for those people assuming your marketing billions can sway most of them?
Would Tesla even exist if GM kept going with EV's? Probably not.

I guess its hard for big manufacturers to imagine moving away from their current product lines, manufacturing lines, billions of R&D spent on those, and then say today is the day we are going to move onto the next set of technologies...

I think that's Musk's advantage, is that he see's what he thinks is the ideal and achievable future in a technology, and just starts working on getting there! It seems the other companies in the fields he competes in, won't, don't, or can't do that?

I kind of agree with you that huge aluminum castings aren't the best solution, but for something achievable today there are lots of advantages, which may be mostly for Tesla, not the final consumers. But no vehicles are really built to be the best long term ownership anymore.... That's not a criteria of enough new car buyers to worry about serviceability, cost of ownership outside the warranty period...

And herein lies one of my big beefs with GM.

They had this, they led it, they blew it.

Had they kept it up they could have staved off BK and their fleet averages would have spared us other atrocities like DOD and other associated complexities that yield minimal pay back.

Telsa would have never existed and GM would have been the worlds envy.

 

[PimTac]

This reminds me of the aircraft industry moving to composites. The advantages of using them was clear from the start but repairs are not as simple as the old aluminum fuselages.

Time will tell how this all works out as these cars get into accidents and we hear the stories of how they are repaired, or not.

 

[TumblrDucks]

I'm sure if giga cast pose this huge advantage, other manufacture will follow. It may take some time but these companies won't sit and see all the cash get flowed to Tesla.
Great promise but still need to be time proven.

 

[JeffKeryk]

I'm sure if giga cast pose this huge advantage, other manufacture will follow. It may take some time but these companies won't sit and see all the cash get flowed to Tesla.
Great promise but still need to be time proven.

According to the numbers, the money is flowing to Tesla now, both in prifits and stock prices.

 

[JeffKeryk]

I wonder if this casting can be adapted to other models. The big thing nowadays is having modular chassis to build suvs, sedans etc all from the same basic platform. Casting would seem to limit it to one model.

Given the casting includes roof, etc., I do not see reuse for another vehicle. The Model Y started out as a puffed up Model 3. There was tons of part commonality.
BMW's CLAR platform was designed for several vehicles and drivetrains, ICE/PHEV/BEV. This offers flexibility at the expense of compromise.
Remember, Tesla is a pure play EV company; they do not have Business Units competing for resources. BMW needs its ICE business to support its EV business. Of course, every decision is a trade off.

One would expect Tesla to learn from the Giga Casting process for the Model Y frame. If it proves to be viable and better, there will be more use especially is the larger run vehicles. The cost savings alone will drive its use.

 

[edyvw]

Well, Tesla has been called an innovator and disrupter.

They did not do this for other reasons.
They should pay more attention QC and less attention on bogus innovations and Twitter wars.

 

[edyvw]

Given the casting includes roof, etc., I do not see reuse for another vehicle. The Model Y started out as a puffed up Model 3. There was tons of part commonality.
BMW's CLAR platform was designed for several vehicles and drivetrains, ICE/PHEV/BEV. This offers flexibility at the expense of compromise.
Remember, Tesla is a pure play EV company; they do not have Business Units competing for resources. BMW needs its ICE business to support its EV business. Of course, every decision is a trade off.

One would expect Tesla to learn from the Giga Casting process for the Model Y frame. If it proves to be viable and better, there will be more use especially is the larger run vehicles. The cost savings alone will drive its use.

They don't compete for resources. You obviously have experience in organizations that have that strategy, which is proven looooooong time ago to be absolutely worst kind of strategy. You assume that is the case in BMW because that is your expectation. I can see Tesla doing that, though.

 

[JeffKeryk]

They don't compete for resources. You obviously have experience in organizations that have that strategy, which is proven looooooong time ago to be absolutely worst kind of strategy. You assume that is the case in BMW because that is your expectation. I can see Tesla doing that, though.

I do have experience in business finance at the exec level. Perhaps you do not agree with the difference between a pure play company vs multiple BUs. There are limited resources to spread amoung competing groups. That's business. The CLAR platform compromise is a prime example of this.

 

[edyvw]

I do have experience in business finance at the exec level. Perhaps you do not agree with the difference between a pure play company vs multiple BUs. There are limited resources to spread amoung competing groups. That's business. The CLAR platform compromise is a prime example of this.

There are no two companies that have the same business model! There are far too many variables in organizational culture, business organization, leadership, ethics etc. that affect EACH organization. Saying "that is business" is the worst kind of simplistic nonsense. That might fly among some people, but anyone knowing anything about any organization knows better.

CLAR is not a compromise. CLAR serves its purpose. The primary source of profit for BMW is ICE. Just because Tesla does something, does not mean everyone else will fallow or should fallow.