Tesla Model Y 1 piece frame from GigaPress

[NismoNVT]

The BMW CLAR platform, which most of their current offerings that are RWD/AWD are based on, was designed to be ICE/PHEV/BEV from the get-go, so the platform is not being adapted, rather, it's just having its use expanded into where it was always intended.

I'd like you to expand on these other points though, I'm curious where the marketing and gimmicks are? I saw very little marketing before I test drove both the i4 and iX, personally preferring the i4 M50.

For a first effort, its flaws seem to be a pretty short list. It has some torque-steer (too much front bias in the AWD) under hard acceleration.

Technically, its design aligns more closely with the 4-series (hence i4, though dimensionally it's a bit different in some respects), not a 3-series, but they share a ton of stuff as the 4-series is just a fastback version of the 3-series. The price is in-line with the Tesla Model Y for a similar level of performance, I don't see that being insane?

Yes, it's heavy. The CLAR platform isn't light, and the car has a lot of sound deadening and other material that other EV's don't, that makes it heavier still. Despite being heavy, its handling is extremely good, as is its performance.

I did a review on here, after having some seat time. It's not a Munro technical tear-down of the vehicle, just impressions from somebody who has driven numerous EV's at this point including the Model S, Model 3, Audi e-tron (which I briefly owned) and whose impressions of this vehicle were quite favourable.

Couple of threads I've made on the i4:
1. Before the test drive, we discuss CLAR, the platform, and the vehicle design:
https://bobistheoilguy.com/forums/threads/the-bmw-i4s-are-coming.352439/

2. After the test drive, we discuss the vehicle, my impressions, and my wife's:
https://bobistheoilguy.com/forums/threads/bmw-i4-m50-review.352667/

Have you driven the i4? if not, I'd highly recommend doing so.

The CLAR platform was designed as an ICE platform first in 2015 in the 7 series. At the time the marketing spin was that it improved BMWs weight over a their competition (s/a8) by being lighter due to use of CFRP (in actuality it turned out to be a mere few lbs that was negligible). At the time they were contemplating launching a CLAR EV 7, and that thing was nearly going add an additional 8-900 kgs and deemed too heavy.

The new i4 takes CLAR and modifies the heck out of it to basically accept a new floor/battery. It weights 400 kgs more then a non casting Tesla Model 3. Again its an excellent strategy that we have seen being used by a couple of mfgs, Kia/Hyundai, Mercedes, GM as it allows them to ship EVs out the door right now rather then later to their core customer base who want a roundel stamped EV.


Some technical breakdowns of the I4






The BMW pure EV platform to watch for is going to be Neue Klasse at least thats the official word from BMW.

 

[OVERKILL]

The CLAR platform was designed as an ICE platform first in 2015 in the 7 series.

Amusingly, @edyvw and I had this conversation previously

See this post:
https://bobistheoilguy.com/forums/threads/bmw-using-brushed-motors.350088/page-7#post-6010007

BMW is hedging in bets in being able to respond to every type of drivetrain a customer might desire as it “simply cannot be sure” how much demand there will be for any particular drivetrain in the future, according to Lutz Meyer, who works on BMW’s product strategy for architectures.

Each of its models will be capable of being equipped with a standard internal combustion engine, a plug-in hybrid drivetrain to electrify the axle not driven by the engine, or a fully electric one.

So CLAR was, from the get-go, according to Lutz Meyer, who works on architecture design for BMW, designed to house a fully electric drivetrain from the get-go. That doesn't mean it was going to be light, lol.

But you really didn't respond to the points I've made, and I'd really appreciate if you would. As I said, I've driven the i4, you dragged it pretty heavily in your comments, but to me, so far, it's the best EV I've ever driven, and I've driven most of them. I also recommend reading the two linked threads, as we've been over most of this stuff already.

I don't want to see more videos from Sandy, I've driven the car, I REALLY liked the car, and greatly prefer it over the Model 3. I'd highly recommend actually driving one before judging it, as everyone's opinion is going to be a bit different.

 

[edyvw]

The CLAR platform was designed as an ICE platform first in 2015 in the 7 series. At the time the marketing spin was that it improved BMWs weight over a their competition (s/a8) by being lighter due to use of CFRP (in actuality it turned out to be a mere few lbs that was negligible). At the time they were contemplating launching a CLAR EV 7, and that thing was nearly going add an additional 8-900 kgs and deemed too heavy.

The new i4 takes CLAR and modifies the heck out of it to basically accept a new floor/battery. It weights 400 kgs more then a non casting Tesla Model 3. Again its an excellent strategy that we have seen being used by a couple of mfgs, Kia/Hyundai, Mercedes, GM as it allows them to ship EVs out the door right now rather then later to their core customer base who want a roundel stamped EV.


Some technical breakdowns of the I4






The BMW pure EV platform to watch for is going to be Neue Klasse at least thats the official word from BMW.

CLAR has huge advantages over Audi.
It is not just simple numbers, but WHERE the savings are. Reduction in in upper part of vehicle (pillars) which lowers dramatically already low center of gravity but increases structural rigidity.

 

[DwightFrye]

You guys who think that Tesla would never exist had GM continued on with their EV1 development are making some pretty broad assumptions.

Just as other manufacturers are seeing the writing on the wall due to the success of Tesla,I have no doubt that Elon Musk would have been discouraged had the EV1 somehow have been developed into a successful EV. He's always been interested in emerging technology especially when it comes to battery or capacitor based power sources.

Competition will be good for the market, especially if it drives the cost down. Tesla's have the profit margin they do because of their manufacturing technique but also because people are willing to pay what they do.Elon may be forced to cut those prices if he sees customers choosing other brands instead.

But I still remain highly skeptical of GM or Ford ever being the leaders in that category.

 

[edyvw]

You guys who think that Tesla would never exist had GM continued on with their EV1 development are making some pretty broad assumptions.

Just as other manufacturers are seeing the writing on the wall due to the success of Tesla,I have no doubt that Elon Musk would have been discouraged had the EV1 somehow have been developed into a successful EV. He's always been interested in emerging technology especially when it comes to battery or capacitor based power sources.

Competition will be good for the market, especially if it drives the cost down. Tesla's have the profit margin they do because of their manufacturing technique but also because people are willing to pay what they do.Elon may be forced to cut those prices if he sees customers choosing other brands instead.

But I still remain highly skeptical of GM or Ford ever being the leaders in that category.

It is impossible for GM and FORD to be leaders. That would require completely different organizational culture after some 50-60 years of doing business “as usual.” Too big for such change.

 

[UncleDave]

You guys who think that Tesla would never exist had GM continued on with their EV1 development are making some pretty broad assumptions.

Just as other manufacturers are seeing the writing on the wall due to the success of Tesla,I have no doubt that Elon Musk would have been discouraged had the EV1 somehow have been developed into a successful EV. He's always been interested in emerging technology especially when it comes to battery or capacitor based power sources.

Competition will be good for the market, especially if it drives the cost down. Tesla's have the profit margin they do because of their manufacturing technique but also because people are willing to pay what they do.Elon may be forced to cut those prices if he sees customers choosing other brands instead.

But I still remain highly skeptical of GM or Ford ever being the leaders in that category.

GM had a high 90% offer to buy rate on the EV1 leases - people liked and wanted to buy the car even with its minimal range- they didn't care what the price would be.

Pretty much to a person they could live with the range and said when these things hit 250 miles well be ready for large scale adoption - and here we are.

Perhaps they would not have been the market leaders, but they would have been a lot further along than they are today.

The volt and bolt likely wouldnt have been so late.

Its really sad they marketed the volt so poorly and looked the other way while the dealers did their best to gouge the early adopters with ridiculous markups.

 

[JeffKeryk]

You guys who think that Tesla would never exist had GM continued on with their EV1 development are making some pretty broad assumptions.

Just as other manufacturers are seeing the writing on the wall due to the success of Tesla,I have no doubt that Elon Musk would have been discouraged had the EV1 somehow have been developed into a successful EV. He's always been interested in emerging technology especially when it comes to battery or capacitor based power sources.

Competition will be good for the market, especially if it drives the cost down. Tesla's have the profit margin they do because of their manufacturing technique but also because people are willing to pay what they do.Elon may be forced to cut those prices if he sees customers choosing other brands instead.

But I still remain highly skeptical of GM or Ford ever being the leaders in that category.

Margins are simply Selling Price minus Cost, often times expressed as a percentage of Selling Price. (Price - Cost) / Price.
Tesla manages cost through manufacturing efficiency and direct sales model. Prices are determined by market demand.

Strong returns from operations allow for further development and growth; whatever the company chooses to do with them. Tesla is cash rich.
Perhaps more importantly, strong margins as compared to competition offer incredible leverage. A company with margin superiority can choose to lower sales prices to squeeze competition and still remain profitable. That's leverage; an enviable business position.

Elon Musk is the highest paid CEO in the US. According to Bloomberg, he is the envy of just about every CEO.

 

[PandaBear]

So wild that Tesla is literally the first company that thought of this and that noone else does it just because they're too lazy, cheap, or dumb....

Tesla has a magical touch on getting funding somehow. Elon is a genius in getting almost unlimited funding for his businesses, despite rocket exploding in test flight early on, EV building in California, he somehow found ways to get the funding most traditional auto business lack to get from point A to point B.

Mazda for example, couldn't afford to do CVT or hybrid in the past and had to rely on tuning mod many do to their street cars: long runner manifold, lockup clutch + torque converter, direct injection + higher compression, valve overlap, 4-2-1 exhaust, high tensile steel, etc. They have to make compromise despite knowing hybrid is the future, and that's the right move for their size.

Will Tesla be able to pull off what they did in the future when the low-interest era is over and recession is coming? It would be hard to tell, I wish them well, they advanced the whole industry a lot.

 

[PandaBear]

GM had a high 90% offer to buy rate on the EV1 leases - people liked and wanted to buy the car even with its minimal range- they didn't care what the price would be.

Pretty much to a person they could live with the range and said when these things hit 250 miles well be ready for large scale adoption - and here we are.

Perhaps they would not have been the market leaders, but they would have been a lot further along than they are today.

The volt and bolt likely wouldnt have been so late.

Its really sad they marketed the volt so poorly and looked the other way while the dealers did their best to gouge the early adopters with ridiculous markups.

I was on a school project and we were given a scrap EV1 post lease by GM, and put a Kei car engine inside and made a hybrid out of it back in the mid to late 90s. It was not ready for prime time and it would not be a popular car for long. The only realistic comparison I could say about it, by being in it first hand and riding shotgun with a test driver (I was only responsible for some assessories firmware), is that it is like a Honda Insight 1st gen with lead acid battery pack. Honda Insight didn't sell well and went downhill very soon after a few years. EV1 would have met the same fate.

Volt would probably be ok if they came out back when Gen3 Prius came out, but even the Prius market is declining and GM, being a less committed business into the future unlike Toyota (a family business), just decided to move to EV in cross over because that's what today's market want. Most of these auto companies must kept the stock price up to keep their finance healthy (convertible bonds, employee compensation, morale, borrowing cost, debt interest, etc).

 

[Ws6]

It's readily apparent that Tesla may be a dedicated EV platform, but it was designed by a child who thinks "bumpy and stiff is proper suspension for zoom zoom!" I think automotive manufacturers who actually know how to build a car are going to mop to the floor with Tesla once they catch up with the software aspect.

 

[ecotourist]

I've never seen one as good as my Japanese SUV's from Mazda and Toyota. Everyone has different standards, though.

My 2021 Tesla has better fit and finish than my 2007 Accord. The Accord isn't bad, but the Tesla is better. The Accord has real leather seats which still look fine after 15 years and 180,000 Km. The Accord has carbon fiber interior trim rather than wood.

The interior materials in my 2000 BMW were notably superior. Especially after I had a couple of pieces of wood trim replaced under warranty. The fit and finish is otherwise similar. The panel gaps might just be better on the Tesla (though I bought the BMW 3 years old and who knows what happened before I bought it).

 

[ecotourist]

It's readily apparent that Tesla may be a dedicated EV platform, but it was designed by a child who thinks "bumpy and stiff is proper suspension for zoom zoom!" I think automotive manufacturers who actually know how to build a car are going to mop to the floor with Tesla once they catch up with the software aspect.

It's not safe to assume that Tesla is standing still on EV hardware and software development. There has been a notable improvement in my Tesla over the past year which I attribute to the frequent software updates.

I understand that Tesla scooped up a couple of steering and suspension specialists from Lotus for their early products. I don't think Lotus is known for "bumpy" though they might be good at "stiff" and "agile". If you have any doubts about "agile" watch the Model 3 Moose Test videos. The Model 3 is tied for top spot. And it might be a good idea to drive one too.

 

[ecotourist]

The interior materials in my 2000 BMW were notably superior. Especially after I had a couple of pieces of wood trim replaced under warranty. The fit and finish is otherwise similar. The panel gaps might just be better on the Tesla (though I bought the BMW 3 years old and who knows what happened before I bought it).

I should say that my BMW had the M sport and interior appearance packages. It was a truly gorgeous car. And although there is no way to do a strict comparison, I have no doubt that that BMW was a considerably more expensive car.

Makes you wonder what a Model 3 with an appearance package and costing $5 to $10,000 more would look like.

 

[Ws6]

It's not safe to assume that Tesla is standing still on EV hardware and software development. There has been a notable improvement in my Tesla over the past year which I attribute to the frequent software updates.

I understand that Tesla scooped up a couple of steering and suspension specialists from Lotus for their early products. I don't think Lotus is known for "bumpy" though they might be good at "stiff" and "agile". If you have any doubts about "agile" watch the Model 3 Moose Test videos. The Model 3 is tied for top spot. And it might be a good idea to drive one too.

They are stiff as all getout. Of course they handle fine on a perfect tarmac. Drive one on the real road spiritedly though...

My 370Z was like that, too. Super good on perfect tarmac, total trash on real streets. hard pass.

Tesla needs more suspension travel in relation to vehicle weight, is the problem.

 

[PimTac]

Another consideration is balancing stiffness and rigidity with crash protection. All car now have crumple zones. If the frame is too stiff and rigid that will increase the likelihood of injuries to passengers.

 

[Ws6]

I saw a 2022 Model 3 yesterday. I looked it over for a few minutes and the body panel alignment wasn't as good as my Japanese cars, but it wasn't as bad as what I was used to seeing with Tesla, either. I don't know how that translated to the interior or anything, but it was nice to see.

 

[nthach]

This reminds me of the aircraft industry moving to composites. The advantages of using them was clear from the start but repairs are not as simple as the old aluminum fuselages.

Time will tell how this all works out as these cars get into accidents and we hear the stories of how they are repaired, or not.

The same fear happened in collision repair when Audi moved to an all-aluminum space frame on the A6/A8 and GM ditched hydro-formed steel for aluminum on the C7 Corvette’s chassis. Honda made waves with the NSX and the 1st gen 2000s Insight that were the first cars to be entirely aluminum but were one-off small-batch cars. The industry adapted.

Tesla only wants certified shops to do body work - for a shop not to lose certification it needs to invest in their people(I-CAR certs, especially in welding, Gold Class doesn’t hurt), equipment and processes.

 

[E365]

Something to watch. This Austin-built Model Y has significant cracks in the front Giga casting.

Maybe just a random slip past QC (or maybe the owner isn’t being truthful to the car’s history) but it will be interesting if other owners find this too.

https://www.thedrive.com/news/tesla-model-y-owner-finds-scary-cracks-in-gigacast-front-end

https://www.autoevolution.com/news/...model-y-has-cracked-front-casting-220165.html

 

[Ws6]

This thread is aging just as predicted, lol!

 

[Ws6]

Something to watch. This Austin-built Model Y has significant cracks in the front Giga casting.

Maybe just a random slip past QC (or maybe the owner isn’t being truthful to the car’s history) but it will be interesting if other owners find this too.

View attachment 176154

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View attachment 176156
https://www.thedrive.com/news/tesla-model-y-owner-finds-scary-cracks-in-gigacast-front-end

https://www.autoevolution.com/news/...model-y-has-cracked-front-casting-220165.html

He's not lying. There is no way this isn't a mfr flaw. No wreck would cause the inclusions we can easily see.