Tesla is about to explode?

There's some legitimacy to their claim actually.

Transmission upkeep is expensive, and if transmission costs are baked into the rate (they aren't here in Ontario, they are a separate charge called "Delivery") then by using net metering or a FIT scheme, you reduce income that is supposed to be directed toward that transmission maintenance.

Transmission neglect has been a HUGE issue in California (hence the fires caused by power lines).

If your solar system is connected to the grid, and you are using the consumer transmission network to buy/sell power, you should definitely be paying your fair share of maintaining that infrastructure, just like those that only buy do.

Of course if you are paying a delivery charge separately (which should be on kWh moved, not net kWh consumed) then an additional charge is just highway robbery.
There is a use charge. The only way to get around it is to go off the grid with a battery. Additional charges will only push people away from the grid, especially over time.

With our high energy costs, the $50 (or whatever) will extend the breakeven point. But the cost of solar continues to drop while PG&E rates only increase. I love my solar project.
The losers will continue to be the poor who cannot do much about the PG&E monopoly.
 
There is a use charge. The only way to get around it is to go off the grid with a battery. Additional charges will only push people away from the grid, especially over time.

With our high energy costs, the $50 (or whatever) will extend the breakeven point. But the cost of solar continues to drop while PG&E rates only increase. I love my solar project.
The losers will continue to be the poor who cannot do much about the PG&E monopoly.
I've seen your bills though, you don't have the equivalent of a "transmission" (delivery) charge like we do, which it appears is what they are trying to remedy. Yes, it might push some people to look at going completely off-grid, the price of that is quite expensive so odds are most who can afford the solar can also afford the $60 and will begrudgingly pay it.
 
I've seen your bills though, you don't have the equivalent of a "transmission" (delivery) charge like we do, which it appears is what they are trying to remedy. Yes, it might push some people to look at going completely off-grid, the price of that is quite expensive so odds are most who can afford the solar can also afford the $60 and will begrudgingly pay it.
For now... Silicon Valley is full of knuckleheads like me. Ha! And we all hate PG&E. There's a reason for it...
 
Panda Bear, Uncle Dave, Jeff Keryk and other California residents, are you aware that there is currently a proposal moving through Sacramento that would add about $60 a month to anyone who has a solar electric system's monthly bill ? This is supposedly because those customers aren't paying "their fair share" towards maintaining the grid.

I suspect it really has to do with the lobbyists from the big electric companies here who see lost revenue to their monopolies and paid off the politicians. While there is something to be said for reducing pollution, the cost savings from having a solar system on your home that has reached the break even cost point and having an EV rather than paying $5.00 a gallon for gas are going to disappear once the politicians decide to add additional taxes on those citizens to make up for the loss. We already know that a large portion of our gas tax doesn't even go towards maintaining the roads as it is supposed to.
It's not always highway robbery and it's part of them paying their fair share. When you hook up commercial power, they have a charge just to hook you up to the grid and if you say you might need 5 megawatts, they're going to charge you whether you use it or not. They can't wait for you to go offline to build a power plant just in case you need the power, the power needs to be there when you need it. Basically that site had their own power generation but they hooked up to the grid in case the site power trips.

So yes, the solar people are hooked up to the grid, but pay very little toward it as they're getting top dollar for the energy they generate but not enough to support the grid for everyone else. They're basically subsidized by everyone else not on solar. And they're big enough now to be a factor.
 
It's not always highway robbery and it's part of them paying their fair share. When you hook up commercial power, they have a charge just to hook you up to the grid and if you say you might need 5 megawatts, they're going to charge you whether you use it or not. They can't wait for you to go offline to build a power plant just in case you need the power, the power needs to be there when you need it. Basically that site had their own power generation but they hooked up to the grid in case the site power trips.

So yes, the solar people are hooked up to the grid, but pay very little toward it as they're getting top dollar for the energy they generate but not enough to support the grid for everyone else. They're basically subsidized by everyone else not on solar. And they're big enough now to be a factor.
That is not what is happening here.
 
Selling 1 million teslas = .1% of the worlds vehicles. Another 10 million and well have a whopping 1%
Look out ICE is dead
Gee if only the smart money looked at today's sales numbers to determine the future direction of the industry. Then you'd be spot on.

They leave those observations to the buggy whip salesmen.

Tell me again how many OEMs are getting rid of ICE development teams?!?
 
If they put some quality into their cars, the price would go way up and sales way down. They really need to increase their quality, but seeing as they are last in the list, they have no where to go but up :D
 
I thought that was the whole point of the bill, that people on Solar weren't paying their fair share because the subsidies were too generous. Now people want them to go on forever.
No. The subsidies have nothing to do with PG&E. They are based on your taxes, if you qualify. The only subsidy is purchase and installation; the "Solar Project".
PG&E uses the term subsidy to make their case, but it is bogus.
PG&E's revenue is down due to solar installations. If you use the grid, you pay to be connected and use it. They want to raise the amount to offset their revenue drop.
Their profits are strong; they give out huge bonuses to their execs while burning down our forrests. Profits are expected to increase.
And yet taxpayers bail them out when they burn our forrests and blow up San Bruno.
PG&E is a monopoly in the vast majority of the areas they service. Including me.
 
No. The subsidies have nothing to do with PG&E. They are based on your taxes, if you qualify. The only subsidy is purchase and installation; the "Solar Project".
PG&E uses the term subsidy to make their case, but it is bogus.
PG&E's revenue is down due to solar installations. If you use the grid, you pay to be connected and use it. They want to raise the amount to offset their revenue drop.
Their profits are strong; they give out huge bonuses to their execs while burning down our forrests. Profits are expected to increase.
And yet taxpayers bail them out when they burn our forrests and blow up San Bruno.
PG&E is a monopoly in the vast majority of the areas they service. Including me.
Quoting you from another thread:
PG&E charges about $15 per month to be connected to the grid. There are other incentives that bring my electricity bill to about $9 per month; last month is was a ridiculous $2.XX. Did I say I love my solar panels?

As I mentioned, that's not sufficient to cover the "poles and wires" cost to keep you connected, that's why they are looking to bump up that fee.

You can't have it both ways. You can't brag that you are paying $9/month (sometimes less) and then complain that PG&E is trying to recoup $60 to cover the poles and wires cost on the number of kWh you shuffled to and from the grid, that's a real cost for them, as a grid operator, regardless of your opinion on their profitability. Calling it a subsidy (assuming net metering and not a FIT arrangement) is incorrect, but it's definitely a legitimate charge, transformers, transmission lines, linesmen, line trucks, these things aren't free and people with $9 hydro bills are not contributing their fair share toward that cost, particularly considering they are using the transmission in a bidirectional manner.

Here's an Ontario bill. You can see our transmission costs are clearly broken out, separately, as Delivery, and that has a base rate component as well as a variable that increases based on the number of kWh consumed.

Screen Shot 2022-01-14 at 11.15.49 PM.webp
 
As I mentioned, that's not sufficient to cover the "poles and wires" cost to keep you connected, that's why they are looking to bump up that fee.

You can't have it both ways. You can't brag that you are paying $9/month (sometimes less) and then complain that PG&E is trying to recoup $60 to cover the poles and wires cost on the number of kWh you shuffled to and from the grid, that's a real cost for them, as a grid operator, regardless of your opinion on their profitability. Calling it a subsidy (assuming net metering and not a FIT arrangement) is incorrect, but it's definitely a legitimate charge, transformers, transmission lines, linesmen, line trucks, these things aren't free and people with $9 hydro bills are not contributing their fair share toward that cost, particularly considering they are using the transmission in a bidirectional manner.

Here's an Ontario bill. You can see our transmission costs are clearly broken out, separately, as Delivery, and that has a base rate component as well as a variable that increases based on the number of kWh consumed.
Yes, not only do they need to pay for transmission charges, they also need to pay for generation charges. When the sun isn't shining, that's too late to go build a power plant to supply electricity. They have peakers standing by in case electricity is needed and even if those don't generate any electricity, it still costs money to have them available and on stand by.
 
Yes, not only do they need to pay for transmission charges, they also need to pay for generation charges. When the sun isn't shining, that's too late to go build a power plant to supply electricity. They have peakers standing by in case electricity is needed and even if those don't generate any electricity, it still costs money to have them available and on stand by.

We can go down that rabbit hole ;)

Originally, the scheme was FIT (or in the case of Ontario, MicroFIT, for installations 10MW or smaller). FIT was a true subsidy scheme, rewarding individuals and developers with absolutely obscene levels of compensation for every kWh produced by their panels. These rates were as high as $0.80/kWh at the onset of the program. Our local 10MW farm gets paid $0.42/kWh. This obviously had an impact on rates (despite some claims to the contrary by complete morons who must be wholly innumerate).

As the price of panels was driven down by the production shift to China, the FIT subsidies became less popular and this was replaced by Net Metering, which I believe is what Jeff is on. Net metering, simply, credits you full retail for every kWh you put on the grid and, if you export more kWh than you consume, you'll actually make money.

Now, proponents of net metering will argue that it's fair, that those kWh are being displaced, but those kWh are not worth full retail cost. The grid operator isn't paying full retail to the nuke or gas plant down the road, they are paying either a fixed per kWh rate (Bruce here currently receives $0.082/kWh) or a market rate, which varies based on demand. This is the wholesale cost.

During the day, high penetrations of solar drive down the market cost, this is reflected in the compensation paid to commercial solar installs, from which the grid operator buys, but not in the price paid to residential net metering customers who get the much higher full retail rates credited to their bills. People with storage can game the system even more by charging using either their own excess capacity, or by the grid when power is cheapest, and then using the battery to avoid the most expensive periods, which are becoming the morning/evening ramps when demand increases, solar isn't on the grid yet or is signing off and gas peakers are fired up and paid a premium.

A fair scenario is paying people who want to have their solar grid connected whatever market rate is for their exported kWh and charging them a delivery fee, with a net usage variable component, like we pay here in Ontario, based on kWh moved, to cover transmission and distribution costs. If they want to be a generator, they'll get paid like one. People with batteries would still be able to avoid the peak periods, but they'd be forced to pay for transmission, and any power they export wouldn't be at a premium.

That appears to be the way things are headed, which only makes sense.

Another thing coming down the pipe that I heard mumblings about after the Texas disaster was that wind farms will have to secure their own backup capacity (gas) for when they can't deliver. That will be a game changer if that starts happening.
 
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My home would be ideal for a solar system. I'm on a ridge and facing south and get plenty of sun. I have propane for the stove, furnace and dryer and my propane bill went up 30% last time the tank was topped off. But my electric bill for an energy efficient newer home only runs about $60 to $95 in the summer when using the A/C on average. But the break even point would be around 10 years so I'm not going solar. If Southern California Edison was going to add $40 to $60 to my bill the break even point would be further away.

My point wasn't to argue that those who have switched to solar shouldn't have any cost incurred to help support the grid, but that the cost looks to me more like just to keep the revenue stream coming in to prop up the monopolies at their current levels once more people switch to solar.
 
Quoting you from another thread:


As I mentioned, that's not sufficient to cover the "poles and wires" cost to keep you connected, that's why they are looking to bump up that fee.

You can't have it both ways. You can't brag that you are paying $9/month (sometimes less) and then complain that PG&E is trying to recoup $60 to cover the poles and wires cost on the number of kWh you shuffled to and from the grid, that's a real cost for them, as a grid operator, regardless of your opinion on their profitability. Calling it a subsidy (assuming net metering and not a FIT arrangement) is incorrect, but it's definitely a legitimate charge, transformers, transmission lines, linesmen, line trucks, these things aren't free and people with $9 hydro bills are not contributing their fair share toward that cost, particularly considering they are using the transmission in a bidirectional manner.

Here's an Ontario bill. You can see our transmission costs are clearly broken out, separately, as Delivery, and that has a base rate component as well as a variable that increases based on the number of kWh consumed.

View attachment 84447

Curious - how many KWH does that represent?

On PGE most orgs dont allow executive pay and bonuses to be spent before the min basic maintenance is done for the fees already collected against this work. This is what peoples main beef is about them.
 
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See PGE's breakdown.

See how infrastructure is covered in multiple places. now we pay WILDFIRE fees on top of the fee for distribution.

So the client get 3 bills now for the maintenance service which then gets spent as executive bonuses.



Screen Shot 2022-01-15 at 8.21.40 AM.png
 
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Average electric bill for December for apartment in Sweden was 600 euros!!! Yes, six hundred! Some houses were slapped with 2,000 euros electric bill.
Europe is going through energy crisis that might become biggest since WWII. And it is all about electricity and gas.
So, while there is this push for EV, expect brakes to be engaged very soon and diesel might become popular again.
Aren't there massive rebates or discounts for driving electric in Sweden? With Nord Stream 2, sounds like this might be your future. Isn't there anywhere else to obtain natural gas for Europe? I've read there were other options but Merkle for some reason went with Putin....
 
Aren't there massive rebates or discounts for driving electric in Sweden? With Nord Stream 2, sounds like this might be your future. Isn't there anywhere else to obtain natural gas for Europe? I've read there were other options but Merkle for some reason went with Putin....
Probably there are discounts but that will eventually go away. Problem is long term energy strategy.
Relying on Putin is not strategy, it is necessary evil. They have to figure out long term strategy that doesn’t include Russians. 40% of gas comes from Russia. They didn’t want to sign long term contracts with Russia which hiked up price. This is game who will blink first. Europe needs gas, and Russians have it. But Russians need money and Europe is their largest gas market.
 
Curious - how many KWH does that represent?

On PGE most orgs dont allow executive pay and bonuses to be spent before the min basic maintenance is done for the fees already collected against this work. This is what peoples main beef is about them.
I COMPLETELY get the beefs about PG&E/Enron, absolutely I do, but in terms of the legitimacy of a transmission/distribution charge, they are in the right on that, regardless of how much of a total gong show the rest of the business is.

My bill is ~1,100kWh shown there.
 
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