Terry's the man!

Quickbeam · Oct 4, 2006

Sure, gang up on the new guy

I have no trouble believing oil dilution in analysis but "the causal relationship can surely just be coincidental. A component could surely just fail that just happened to cause a misfire while the fuel issues can be totally from another condition" is what I'm positive happened based on everything I've learned from years of experience.

As for my certs I was simply establishing my credentials in an effort to back my claim. I'm an ASE Master Tech who specializizes in drivability and emissions. I also repair and refrubish BAR 97 emissions systems on the side. The BAR cert alone requires a minimum of three years prior experience in the automotive field (I have 18) before even qualifying to take the courses required for emisisons certifcation and passing the exams is not easy. I like to think I know what I'm doing but hey, who doesn't?

I enjoy your posts. It appears you have an inquisitive and analytical mind coupled with a sense of humor. That said I we'll just have to agree to disagree rather than my explaining in detail why I believe you (and the others) are very likely wrong in this instance. That and I've no desire to get into a dispute with anyone.

oilyriser · Oct 4, 2006

My Subaru was misfiring from a bad plug wire, and the error light didn't light up, but the event might have been recorded somewere.

427Z06 · Oct 4, 2006

Quote:

Sure, gang up on the new guy

Don't worry, I got your back.

We need more guys like you around here. Too many myths and old wives tales when it comes to ECUs/ECMs/etc.

Gary Allan · Oct 5, 2006

Quote:

I enjoy your posts. It appears you have an inquisitive and analytical mind coupled with a sense of humor. That said I we'll just have to agree to disagree rather than my explaining in detail why I believe you (and the others) are very likely wrong in this instance. That and I've no desire to get into a dispute with anyone.

Well, don't let that stop you.

There's no reason for you not to explain why you feel the way you do. Let's get your take on it.

Terry · Oct 5, 2006

QuickBeam, I understand and have experienced the doubts you share after my own 30 years of automotive oil analysis experience. When it comes to determining, proactively, predictively,accurately,lube capability and the host units mechanical condition, and combustion efficiency ...high quality used oil analysis is one of the most underated and overlooked tools used in tuning and diagnosis of the IC engine. Sometimes because people with degrees and monikers who claim to understand APPLICATION of the results will poo poo what they can't understand or do. Add the problem of sloppy cheap cookie cutter oil analysis labs two line conclusions that give a curt;"checked found OK" interpretation of data ..and your doubt is understandable.

Recent case in point is a STLE "certified" former BITOG site sponsor with a "CLS certification" that embarrasingly could not ID the sodium oil additive from coolant contamination when a UOA of his own companies oils were provided.

I trust honest track record and performance/intelligence over "stinkin badges" any day!

BTW my STLE # is 38307

I'm no emissions expert but even 427ZO6 doubted the chronic fuel dilute issue in NEW Hondas I ID'd for him in his own Honda a few years back when he was still engineering some of the components of the same systems.

Terry

Quickbeam · Oct 6, 2006

Terry, I don't doubt your findings. I respect your reputation and the experinece that proceeds it. Nor do I doubt the value of high quality oil analysis, something long used and has proven it's value in another industry I'm familar with. I was simly questioning the cause in this particular case and I stand by my statements. The question also come up whether any dilution below a certain point is worth chasing. There will always be some if one looks close enough.

Having said that I'm no expert on oil (or oil analysis) but based on much of the misinformation I see on this board concerning things I am familar with I sometimes wonder where it's real value lies. Separating the wheat from the chaff is likely the reason noobs come here to begin with but the signal to noise ratio is such it's almost a catch 22. The seeming lack of objectivity by those directly involved in selling certain products gets old too. It's because of these reasons I'll likely remain a lurker until it's time to move on. I suspect I've probably already worn out my welcome

Laminar Lou · Oct 6, 2006

Quote:

snip
Having said that I'm no expert on oil (or oil analysis) but based on much of the misinformation I see on this board concerning things I am familar with I sometimes wonder where it's real value lies. Separating the wheat from the chaff is likely the reason noobs come here to begin with but the signal to noise ratio is such it's almost a catch 22. The seeming lack of objectivity by those directly involved in selling certain products gets old too. It's because of these reasons I'll likely remain a lurker until it's time to move on. I suspect I've probably already worn out my welcome

/snip

And that is why if you want the definitive answer, you go to Mr. Dyson. He is pretty good at grain seperation

FWIW, I don't think you've worn out your welcome. People who can speak intelligently without making personal insults will always have a place here. Just be careful about talking in absolutes - people make sport of intellectually pummeling the poor soul who uses the word “always” and “it has to be”.

bruce381 · Oct 6, 2006

Terry
STLE # 14681
CLS # 298

bruce

GMBoy · Oct 6, 2006

You could simply have a leaky injector and that will leak when the engine is not running in some cases. Had one on my 94 LT1 Corvette. Starting up cold it would run rich and stumble for about 5 seconds than all was well. Turned out to be the #5 and #8 injectors were leaking down and slightly flooding the engine while it was off. That'll throw some fuel in the engine oil.

Gary Allan · Oct 6, 2006

Quote:

It's because of these reasons I'll likely remain a lurker until it's time to move on. I suspect I've probably already worn out my welcome

Why so

No one is getting excited here

I haven't seen any vendor get their panties in a knot over legit critical review. Now if you get into a mudslinging rant ..then there are issues that will be addressed ..but other then that, I just don't see any reason not to express yourself candidly and freely. We have all mixes of membership here. Engineers and whatnot of fairly lofty intellectual distinction ..all the way down to "Pennzoil is waxy sludge and I'm sticking to that story regardless of the evidence" types. Most are here to learn something. Some are here to share something. Some manage to do both.

eljefino · Oct 6, 2006

I like GMboy's idea of a leaking injector.

Also I found a GM website that goes over their OBD-II monitoring algorithms very thoroughly with respect to what conditions are necessary to throw hidden codes (no CEL), dormant codes (can only be read by Tech-II) and full-fledged CEL-lighting events that generic readers can read. Can't find the link and forget the specs but you can get several misfires in and repeat several times before the 'puter complains. Also one needs a coolant temp over ~130'F and meet other criteria. Now this is GM and the Jeep is Mopar but this programming is EPA-approved in "looseness." If that jeep had a bum coolant temp sensor that read cold, some of its on-board diagnostics wouldn't run or run at the appropriate time.

So, by noticing fuel dilution, Terry's the man.

Quickbeam · Oct 6, 2006

Sigh...I truly am giving up with this post. Apples to oranges in this case as is the argument about a leaky injector. The issue is not whether Terry can detect dilution, it's when it occured.

And it's called an MIL. CEL is a laymans term. If you're going to tell me my business at least get the terminology correct.

Gary Allan · Oct 6, 2006

The Mopar system is a simple speed/density system. It has long term adaptives to increment or decrement the premapped fuel curves in open loop. The only time the sensors (other then the map) alter anything is in cruise or idle mode. When you're in open loop, the O2 sensor has no bearing on the injector pulse width ..but is output is recorded. That's what alters your long term adaptives. That's how it compensates for system degradation and can stay in compliance for 100k+. This is all straight out of the FSM. Sure there are pending codes that expire without setting a CEL and pending codes that continue and set the CEL.

427Z06 · Oct 6, 2006

Gary, I think Quickbeam's point is that Terry detected fuel diltuion in the past, and your current problems may be related to the past, OR, they just may be a whole new set of issues.

Quickbeam, I wouldn't take Terry's comments personally, he's just reaffirming his capabilties and expertise in a general way.

Please stick around, Quickbeam. Being surrounded only by Tribo-Lubeheads types can get a little too vanilla for my tastes.

Gary Allan · Oct 6, 2006

Quote:

If you're going to tell me my business at least get the terminology correct.

Visions of Quint in JAWS as "Hoopah" says that Quint doesn't have a shark on the end of the line: Stingray!? D'n you tell me my business agin.

GMBoy · Oct 6, 2006

Quickbeam - you are correct in that MIL is the current term vs CEL for "the light". If you could see my GM book on all the acronyms GM alone uses you'd die laughing. Sometimes at work meetings(GM)somebody will forget what an acronym means and has to look it up! I have to add that a leaky injector may contribute to fuel in the oil, that's the only reason why I made the comment. Just trying to help apples or oranges who cares if it helps someone.

Gary Allan · Oct 6, 2006

Quote:

Gary, I think Quickbeam's point is that Terry detected fuel diltuion in the past, and your current problems may be related to the past, OR, they just may be a whole new set of issues.

Sure. That's entirely possible. I'm just going on the Mr Ducks method:

Terry: Mr Ducks (2% fuel - check your ignition )
Gary: R Not (yep, just changed the plugs not too long ago- no drivablilty issues - it's probably dirty injectors)
Terry next UOA: Mr Ducks (still looks like fuel related issues- ARE YOU SURE your ignition is okay?)
"Quack!" (MIL/CEL for ignition related malfunction)
Gary: LIB (Well I'll be xxxxx'd)
Gary: Mr Ducks (looks like you were right)

Quickbeam · Oct 6, 2006

It's all good gentlemen. This thread has gotten blown out of proportion anyway.

Thanks 427. That's been my point: the dilution was caused by something unrelated to the misfire code. That's my story as a professional with years of experience and training and I'm sticking to it. To paraprhase you I'm simply reaffirming my capabilties and expertise...same as Terry but in a different field. As for Terry I took zero offense at his comments.

Gary, don't confuse various automakers strategies for employing long and short fuel trims during EFI operation with diagnostic routines. They are distinctly separate algorithms. One is vehicle dependent while the other is decreed by regulation. There are some tolerances and coding differences yes, but the parameters, ect, required to monitor and set DTCs (codes) are standardized. That was the intent of OBD II in the first place. It's also why DTC nomenclature is the same across PCM platforms.

Btw, I was around for the filming of Jaws as I grew up on Martha's Vineyard. The stories I could tell you. And stop making fun of the way we talk

Terry · Oct 6, 2006

Quickbeam states; "Having said that I'm no expert on oil (or oil analysis) but based on much of the misinformation I see on this board concerning things I am familar with I sometimes wonder where it's real value lies. Separating the wheat from the chaff is likely the reason noobs come here to begin with but the signal to noise ratio is such it's almost a catch 22. "
I agree.

I am no emissions expert so keep adding your contribution to attempts to add MEAT to this board in your area of expertise. It is appreciated even if we disagree, I am not always correct in everything I do( however I have a good success rate with test analysis interpretation with lubes and IC engines).

One of the dangers of BITOG is that the guy who likes to type can overwhelm with reasonable sounding posts, a risk that Bob Winters was willing to take when I reluctantly agreed to help get this board started. So Quickbeam please hang around and raise the quality of data shared above the noise quality level. If it helps the average motorist I think that is a admirable thing!

The intersection of science and folk myth is a convoluted one when it comes to automobiles in the US, they are our cultural Golden Calf.

Bruce I am impressed as always with your monikers!

Bruce in your case I suspect even you are beginning to learn new tricks, even at your elevated time in grade in this business...

427Z06 · Oct 6, 2006

Quote:

Terry: Mr Ducks (2% fuel - check your ignition )
Gary: R Not (yep, just changed the plugs not too long ago- no drivablilty issues - it's probably dirty injectors)
Terry next UOA: Mr Ducks (still looks like fuel related issues- ARE YOU SURE your ignition is okay?)
"Quack!" (MIL/CEL for ignition related malfunction)
Gary: LIB (Well I'll be xxxxx'd)
Gary: Mr Ducks (looks like you were right)

Since your other post was also clear as mud...I have no idea how anybody could ever be confused by you.

Quickbeam, please just don't start whining in a Boston accent.

Terry's the man!

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