Terry's the man!

Gary Allan · Oct 3, 2006

This is so funny.

Well, not funny really ..but had me feeling (somewhat) like a horse's behind ..but grateful for the spanking

With my first UOA with Terry on my 02 2.5 jeep there was high fuel. He asked if the ignition was sound. I had replaced the plugs not too long before ..and I replaced them for no apparent reason ..so I was convinced that all was hunky dory. 6000 miles later, I have no fuel ..and I attributed it to a double dose (back to back) of Ragane early on.

Anyway ..Terry still insisted that in spite of no fuel being present, the UOA showed signs of the effects of excess fuel. He, once again, asked how the tune was. The engine showed not one sign of ill condition. It never skipped a beat. Economy (always lacking in a jeep) was difficult to track ..but showed no inordinate excess usage.

I took a trip to MA this weekend in my wife's jeep. When I returned my wife complained about an odd starting occurance in mine. Today, my daughter reported a CEL and an odd drivability situation.

The code read P0303. #3 cylinder misfire. You would never have guessed that anything was wrong from the way the jeep acted. It pulled decently to 70+mph without complaint and evidenced no breaking up or hestitation. I attribute no fuel being found due to my heat exchanger that allows the oil to heat much quicker then normal.

I can't wait to see what it's supposed to feel like with a full tune on it.

So, all yea of little faith ...give Terry's service a spin FWIW. To me I'd say it's well worth the price of admission.

MarkC · Oct 3, 2006

I had that same thing happening earlier this year. The wire was broken, but not enough to cause a misfire all the time.
Terry

is excellent. And underpaid.

buster · Oct 3, 2006

Very cool. Nice job Terry!

Gary Allan · Oct 3, 2006

Quote:

Very cool. Nice job Terry!

The uncanny part about it was the, almost, poetic and timely triggering of the CEL and the complaint from my wife and daughter.

It was something out of a staged comedy.

"I can assure that that everythings fine ..beyond a shadow of a doubt!"

..few seconds later

Gotta put that tinfoil hat back on. Terry is too good at remote viewing. Why too spooky (cue errie sound clip)

Quickbeam · Oct 3, 2006

Hmmm...I don't want to take anything away from Terry (he strikes me as knowing his biz) but OBDII misfire monitoring is notoriously sensitive, made so by emissions regs. As you pointed out there was no perceptable performance impact when the misfire occured.

If you had even the slightest misfire problem 6000 miles ago you'd have gotten a code then. Everything I know about OBDII and emissions (which is what OBD was developed for) tells me whatever problem you now have that set this misfire code just happened. That's my .02

Gary Allan · Oct 3, 2006

Surely OBDII is highly reliable in most things ..surely in terms of misfire. This doesn't mean that you can let a car go until a misfire is detected and there will be no side effects of not tuning it until that point. Now I didn't "let it go" ..but it went somewhere without me knowing. My wires might be heat fatiqued ..although I've never noticed a difference when I changed them, the cap and rotor may have degraded without notice. That's the liablilty of such reliable fuel/ignition managment. Most degradations are so gradual that you never notice.

Wouldn't you agree?

Quickbeam · Oct 3, 2006

Sorry G-Man, no sale

. My point was that a misfire anywhere near bad enough to cause fuel dilution of the oil (and all but the worst won't) would be instantly detected. Due to their sensitivity P03XX codes are often among the most difficult to resolve. If you had misfire any time during those 6000 miles you'd have known it then and there so imho the misfire you're having now can't be related to a past UOA.

The Critic · Oct 3, 2006

Actually, it's certainly possible for a misfire to be imperceptible under light load and cause a rich running or excessive hydrocarbons.

Quickbeam · Oct 3, 2006

I never said it wasn't but detection of it and fuel dilution of the oil are what is being questioned. Weren't you the guy who was recently struggling with high HC? Based on that thread I got the impression you've some things to learn about emissions and engine management. Being ASE and BAR 97 certified I've given my opinion so I'll let the dispute die with this.

The Critic · Oct 3, 2006

Don't know. And yes, I was the guy who had some high HC issues. But that was over two years ago, and at that time, the plugs had over 35k miles on them (Copper) and I had a huge plug tube seal leak. I replaced the plugs shortly after the emissions test and never rechecked the smog, so I don't know. I'll be smogging it again in a month or so after all repairs are done so we'll see.

Gary Allan · Oct 3, 2006

Quote:

I never said it wasn't but detection of it and fuel dilution of the oil are what is being questioned. Weren't you the guy who was recently struggling with high HC? Based on that thread I got the impression you've some things to learn about emissions and engine management. Being ASE and BAR 97 certified I've given my opinion so I'll let the dispute die with this.

I don't agree with you here QB. My jeep is in open loop most of its life. Although it may warm up rapidly, it's rarely in cruise mode. It's trips are of the 5-10 miles max. My emissions test has no sniffer component to it. I just need NO CODES and I get a badge. If my O2 sensor has too many lean crossovers in open loop, my PCM will broaden the pulse width along the preprogrammed fuel curve. Too many riches and it will narrow it. My PCM isn't sophisticated enough to "poll" my injectors ..so some may run lean ..and other may leak. The O2 sees only the average. There is no reason why one cylinder can't be rich, washing down (mildly-but above normal) while others are just short of detonation. There are more then a few 2.5 OBDII engines that have burned pistons with high speed undected detonation without ever showing a code. They are fairly "numb". There's no knock sensor on this engine. The converter only throws a code when the input 02 and the output 02 are matched with only a delay.

Are you saying that until there's a misfire event ..there is absolutely 100% combustion integrity in any and all OBDII engines. The consumer need never perform any maintenance ..whatsoever ..and as long as no code is produced .they are running at peak performance and can't suffer any side effects that may evidence themselves in an oil analysis? I don't think that you can extend such an assertion with any confidence.

btw- my "high fuel" was 1.5% in the original UOA. Here

Of course, Terry can just have pulled this out of his behind and just happened to be 100% spot on with a SWAG.

Sparkman · Oct 3, 2006

Terry is the man for sure!

I'm in Sweden on business now, I can't wait to get home (for many reasons) and drain the RTS in my 4.0 and send it off to get Terry's opinion. Putting that Amsoil 0w30 in is going to be fun.

Gary, where did you get the heat exchanger? I drive 1.5 miles to work each way now and I'm now considering ways of heating things up better. Perhaps a block heater or pan heater, perhaps something like you are using. I've been known to take a circuitous route to heat things up, but I still think that things haven't reached steady-state by the time I get to work. It's going to be very interesting to see how this UOA will compare to my 50+ mile each way UOA's.

Gary Allan · Oct 3, 2006

Quote:

Gary, where did you get the heat exchanger? I drive 1.5 miles to work each way now and I'm now considering ways of heating things up better. Perhaps a block heater or pan heater, perhaps something like you are using. I've been known to take a circuitous route to heat things up, but I still think that things haven't reached steady-state by the time I get to work. It's going to be very interesting to see how this UOA will compare to my 50+ mile each way UOA's.

The one that's on my 2.5 is an old Mopar Performance Catalog number. It's discontinued. You can get an almost identical unit if you ask for an oil cooler from a 2005 Grand Caravan with HD towing package. The hose nipples are slightly angled instead of straight like on mine ..and it's about $130+/- depending on how nice the parts guy is to you. The same size Ford unit (when they used them= from the same manufacturer) would be around $300-400. You may be able to find a used on one ebay. They typicallly go for between $40-50 delivered. You need one from a pre mid 90's V8. I believe that they started using them in the mid 80's.

You can also use one from a VW/Audi. You just need to remove your 3/4-16 stubby nipple and replace it with the VW/AUDI longer nipple w/lock nut. Those are still abundant on ebay and relatively cheap. You'll have to go to a shorter filter (the PH16 size will still work, probably). If you go too long (outboard) you will hit the control arm bracket if the motor mounts are loose. You can get an OEM right angle mount setup (from the same nice parts man) for about $45 with all parts included ..except for the stubby that you need to remove. This will also work with a VW/AUDI cooler.

Plumbing the heater hose is, naturally, simple.

In both my jeeps the most apparent effect is lowering the coolant time. It also lowers the oil temp at highway speeds. When I come off the highway (to idle) my pressure is higher then when I'm in town idling. They appear to provide more cooling piggybacking the oil cooling into the coolant circuit. I think it unloads the cooling jacket to a disproportionate amount. The flow rate differential does the rest. Just my opinion based on observations.

BrianWC · Oct 3, 2006

Quote:

Sorry G-Man, no sale

. My point was that a misfire anywhere near bad enough to cause fuel dilution of the oil (and all but the worst won't) would be instantly detected. Due to their sensitivity P03XX codes are often among the most difficult to resolve. If you had misfire any time during those 6000 miles you'd have known it then and there so imho the misfire you're having now can't be related to a past UOA.

Gotta argue with that and agree with Critic. I've found several instances on my last SAAB where I could get periodic slight misfires without it tripping the CEL. It was only when I really gave it full throttle that it would light up like a Christmas tree. And yes, it was OBDII.

Sparkman · Oct 4, 2006

Quote:

Quote:

Gary, where did you get the heat exchanger? I drive 1.5 miles to work each way now and I'm now considering ways of heating things up better. Perhaps a block heater or pan heater, perhaps something like you are using. I've been known to take a circuitous route to heat things up, but I still think that things haven't reached steady-state by the time I get to work. It's going to be very interesting to see how this UOA will compare to my 50+ mile each way UOA's.

Click to expand...

The one that's on my 2.5 is an old Mopar Performance Catalog number. It's discontinued. You can get an almost identical unit if you ask for an oil cooler from a 2005 Grand Caravan with HD towing package. The hose nipples are slightly angled instead of straight like on mine ..and it's about $130+/- depending on how nice the parts guy is to you. The same size Ford unit (when they used them= from the same manufacturer) would be around $300-400. You may be able to find a used on one ebay. They typicallly go for between $40-50 delivered. You need one from a pre mid 90's V8. I believe that they started using them in the mid 80's.

You can also use one from a VW/Audi. You just need to remove your 3/4-16 stubby nipple and replace it with the VW/AUDI longer nipple w/lock nut. Those are still abundant on ebay and relatively cheap. You'll have to go to a shorter filter (the PH16 size will still work, probably). If you go too long (outboard) you will hit the control arm bracket if the motor mounts are loose. You can get an OEM right angle mount setup (from the same nice parts man) for about $45 with all parts included ..except for the stubby that you need to remove. This will also work with a VW/AUDI cooler.

Plumbing the heater hose is, naturally, simple.

In both my jeeps the most apparent effect is lowering the coolant time. It also lowers the oil temp at highway speeds. When I come off the highway (to idle) my pressure is higher then when I'm in town idling. They appear to provide more cooling piggybacking the oil cooling into the coolant circuit. I think it unloads the cooling jacket to a disproportionate amount. The flow rate differential does the rest. Just my opinion based on observations.

Thanks Gary, sorry for the OT tangent. I'll keep my cheap eyes peeled on ebay.

Gary Allan · Oct 4, 2006

If I see one, I'll PM you.

AEHaas · Oct 4, 2006

I have seen high end sports cars with 4 and 5 percent fuel but no errors recorded. Something must allow fuel dilution to occur without tripping OBD codes.

aehaas

Gary Allan · Oct 4, 2006

I'm not sure where QB was coming from. Maybe he doesn't dispute the reading of fuel related UOA markers ..but has trouble with the ignorance (and assumed cause)of it terminating in a misfire code

Now the causal relationship can surely just be coincidental. A component could surely just fail that just happened to cause a misfire while the fuel issues can be totally from another condition.

..but I don't believe this to be the case.

The ignition refresh will tell the tale. There are all kinds of inaudible backfires that occur in engines. It's what turns the underside of your throttle body butterfly black, while the top side is clean. These never show up as a misfire ..or any other code.

Rand · Oct 4, 2006

My take is he was saying you were ignorant and he knows better then you because he's ASE certified.

Its funny I get that all the time working on computers.
I'm certified pretty heavily and the 8$/hr pimply face
kid at bestbuy thinks he knows more than me because hes
A+ certified(first baby step in computer certs.)
Note: I only took the computer there because it was under
their warrenty....

Back on topic I have always wanted to get the UOA package with interpretation but I dont see much sense with a new car. Maybe after I hit 10k miles and right before
warrenty is up it makes alot more sense if you are short on funds.

Quote:

I never said it wasn't but detection of it and fuel dilution of the oil are what is being questioned. Weren't you the guy who was recently struggling with high HC? Based on that thread I got the impression you've some things to learn about emissions and engine management. Being ASE and BAR 97 certified I've given my opinion so I'll let the dispute die with this.

Just a note I am in no way saying anything about ASE certs.
if my comment seemed harsh.

Gary Allan · Oct 4, 2006

Well, I'm sure QB is a smart guy ..experienced ..whatnot. No slouch ..etc...

We just don't agree here. I have no need to compare shoe sizes.

The proof of the pudding will be in the eating. I would say that after I straighten out my ignition issue ..and do another 6k with new oil ..do a UOA...and the evidence that Terry saw isn't present anymore ..it will kinda close the case here.

Terry's the man!

Similar threads