This is my opinion regarding top tier. Yes, top tier is a performance standard and it costs money to certify your additive. It's also my opinion that some retailers that are not listed as Top Tier are still just as good. For instance RaceTrac. RaceTrac is among one of the retailers I purchase fuel from and I've never had any issue with their gas. In the DFW area RaceTrac is everywhere and a lot of their stations are newer. I also like RaceTrac because they deliver fuel in their own trucks for the most part, Love's and Pilot also do this. They run a tight operation. I literally have no qualms about using fuel non top tier from trusted retailers. RaceTrac, Buc ee's, CEFCO, Pilot, Love's, etc. I've never had any issues with their fuels.
Techron and PEA
- Thread starter buddylpal
- Start date
Originally Posted by buddylpal
This is my opinion regarding top tier. Yes, top tier is a performance standard and it costs money to certify your additive. It's also my opinion that some retailers that are not listed as Top Tier are still just as good. For instance RaceTrac. RaceTrac is among one of the retailers I purchase fuel from and I've never had any issue with their gas. In the DFW area RaceTrac is everywhere and a lot of their stations are newer. I also like RaceTrac because they deliver fuel in their own trucks for the most part, Love's and Pilot also do this. They run a tight operation. I literally have no qualms about using fuel non top tier from trusted retailers. RaceTrac, Buc ee's, CEFCO, Pilot, Love's, etc. I've never had any issues with their fuels.
The retailer doesn't specifically need to certify the additive. Chemical companies like BASF, Afton, Chevron Oronite, and Lubrizol already have off the shelf additive packages where they've already conducted the tests with concentrations that meet the Top Tier performance requirements. All the retailer needs to do is use the test results and certify that they will use at least that concentration.
This is my opinion regarding top tier. Yes, top tier is a performance standard and it costs money to certify your additive. It's also my opinion that some retailers that are not listed as Top Tier are still just as good. For instance RaceTrac. RaceTrac is among one of the retailers I purchase fuel from and I've never had any issue with their gas. In the DFW area RaceTrac is everywhere and a lot of their stations are newer. I also like RaceTrac because they deliver fuel in their own trucks for the most part, Love's and Pilot also do this. They run a tight operation. I literally have no qualms about using fuel non top tier from trusted retailers. RaceTrac, Buc ee's, CEFCO, Pilot, Love's, etc. I've never had any issues with their fuels.
The retailer doesn't specifically need to certify the additive. Chemical companies like BASF, Afton, Chevron Oronite, and Lubrizol already have off the shelf additive packages where they've already conducted the tests with concentrations that meet the Top Tier performance requirements. All the retailer needs to do is use the test results and certify that they will use at least that concentration.
Originally Posted by y_p_w
Originally Posted by buddylpal
This is my opinion regarding top tier. Yes, top tier is a performance standard and it costs money to certify your additive. It's also my opinion that some retailers that are not listed as Top Tier are still just as good. For instance RaceTrac. RaceTrac is among one of the retailers I purchase fuel from and I've never had any issue with their gas. In the DFW area RaceTrac is everywhere and a lot of their stations are newer. I also like RaceTrac because they deliver fuel in their own trucks for the most part, Love's and Pilot also do this. They run a tight operation. I literally have no qualms about using fuel non top tier from trusted retailers. RaceTrac, Buc ee's, CEFCO, Pilot, Love's, etc. I've never had any issues with their fuels.
The retailer doesn't specifically need to certify the additive. Chemical companies like BASF, Afton, Chevron Oronite, and Lubrizol already have off the shelf additive packages where they've already conducted the tests with concentrations that meet the Top Tier performance requirements. All the retailer needs to do is use the test results and certify that they will use at least that concentration.
If you would read my post again you will notice I never mentioned anything about the retailer having to certify their additive.
Originally Posted by buddylpal
This is my opinion regarding top tier. Yes, top tier is a performance standard and it costs money to certify your additive. It's also my opinion that some retailers that are not listed as Top Tier are still just as good. For instance RaceTrac. RaceTrac is among one of the retailers I purchase fuel from and I've never had any issue with their gas. In the DFW area RaceTrac is everywhere and a lot of their stations are newer. I also like RaceTrac because they deliver fuel in their own trucks for the most part, Love's and Pilot also do this. They run a tight operation. I literally have no qualms about using fuel non top tier from trusted retailers. RaceTrac, Buc ee's, CEFCO, Pilot, Love's, etc. I've never had any issues with their fuels.
The retailer doesn't specifically need to certify the additive. Chemical companies like BASF, Afton, Chevron Oronite, and Lubrizol already have off the shelf additive packages where they've already conducted the tests with concentrations that meet the Top Tier performance requirements. All the retailer needs to do is use the test results and certify that they will use at least that concentration.
If you would read my post again you will notice I never mentioned anything about the retailer having to certify their additive.
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$50 site donor 2024
Originally Posted by Jackson_Slugger
Originally Posted by rrretiree7
Is it better than Gumout products??
Depends who you ask, but I think the Techron hardcore purests will say Techron likely has a higher PEA content/percentage. IDK, but both are likely good products....
I have been driving the wife's Tahoe this week and noticed it had a rough idle … AZ had a 2-fer on Gumout Regane PEA varieties … so dumped both bottles in at the Exxon … By the time 1/3 of that tank was burned … smooth as silk idle …
Originally Posted by rrretiree7
Is it better than Gumout products??
Depends who you ask, but I think the Techron hardcore purests will say Techron likely has a higher PEA content/percentage. IDK, but both are likely good products....
I have been driving the wife's Tahoe this week and noticed it had a rough idle … AZ had a 2-fer on Gumout Regane PEA varieties … so dumped both bottles in at the Exxon … By the time 1/3 of that tank was burned … smooth as silk idle …
Originally Posted by ARCOgraphite
I haven't found the need anymore. Fuels have PLENTY of detergency.
Seems to do more harm than good from past experience.
I had long/ hard starting after using Techron once. And it lasted for the remainder of the vehicles life.
I apologize to tell you that your statement that "fuels have plenty of detergency" is incorrect. The minimum requirement for terminals to sell ANY gasoline at all is 'Lowest Additive Concentration' or 'LAC'. Which is a small amount of detergent that does provides a little amount of benefit for cleaning systems... I'd say it is better than none at all. As others have posted, 'Top Tier' was established by General Motors and accepted by many other OEM's. This simply is about 3-4x the 'LAC' level of detergent. Majority of gas stations that claim 'Top Tier' all get the minimum level of detergent needed to achieve 'Top Tier' as they do not want additional costs to end users. Another reason is that is injected at the terminal where they purchase the fuel so they do not have ability to add more. If 'Top Tier' is not labeled on the pump, you are most likely getting 'LAC' gasoline.
Top Tier does give additional benefits over 'LAC' gas.. How noticeable is it? I'll leave that to you.
I haven't found the need anymore. Fuels have PLENTY of detergency.
Seems to do more harm than good from past experience.
I had long/ hard starting after using Techron once. And it lasted for the remainder of the vehicles life.
I apologize to tell you that your statement that "fuels have plenty of detergency" is incorrect. The minimum requirement for terminals to sell ANY gasoline at all is 'Lowest Additive Concentration' or 'LAC'. Which is a small amount of detergent that does provides a little amount of benefit for cleaning systems... I'd say it is better than none at all. As others have posted, 'Top Tier' was established by General Motors and accepted by many other OEM's. This simply is about 3-4x the 'LAC' level of detergent. Majority of gas stations that claim 'Top Tier' all get the minimum level of detergent needed to achieve 'Top Tier' as they do not want additional costs to end users. Another reason is that is injected at the terminal where they purchase the fuel so they do not have ability to add more. If 'Top Tier' is not labeled on the pump, you are most likely getting 'LAC' gasoline.
Top Tier does give additional benefits over 'LAC' gas.. How noticeable is it? I'll leave that to you.
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On the other hand, I've only used a fuel additive (Techron) once on my BMW when it had a rough idle. It turned out to be a pushed-back pin on one of the injector connectors, besides that instance I have never used an additive on any of my vehicles in all the miles they have accumulated. My nearest gas station is indeed Top Tier, but I do not go out of my way to fuel there and have often filled up at random stations that do not advertise TT.
I have had the fuel injectors out of all four of my high-mileage cars and have had the intake manifolds apart along with the head on the Accord. None have had much of any kind of deposit at all, in fact when the head was in the shop for the Accord the machinist said it looked very clean. So even though the "other" stations may have only had the EPA minimum of additives, I have seen no evidence it is deficient nor insufficient. Top Tier stations may have higher levels of additives but from my perspective the others do have an adequate amount.
I have had the fuel injectors out of all four of my high-mileage cars and have had the intake manifolds apart along with the head on the Accord. None have had much of any kind of deposit at all, in fact when the head was in the shop for the Accord the machinist said it looked very clean. So even though the "other" stations may have only had the EPA minimum of additives, I have seen no evidence it is deficient nor insufficient. Top Tier stations may have higher levels of additives but from my perspective the others do have an adequate amount.
Originally Posted by PhilOilMan
Majority of gas stations that claim 'Top Tier' all get the minimum level of detergent needed to achieve 'Top Tier' as they do not want additional costs to end users. Another reason is that is injected at the terminal where they purchase the fuel so they do not have ability to add more. If 'Top Tier' is not labeled on the pump, you are most likely getting 'LAC' gasoline.
Again, it depends. Sunoco seems to be claiming that they're discontinuing the Top Tier license to save money, but haven't noted if they're changing the additive concentration. Shell and Chevron claim to be at a detergent level that far exceeds Top Tier requirements. Costco claims 5x the "EPA minimum". For the longest time BP was specifically recommended by BMW even though they hadn't been Top Tier licensed. However, it was usually the big names, even if they didn't go for Top Tier.
At least 76 (not sure about the other Phillips brands) claims that their additive level is 30% higher than what the Top Tier requirements would be.
![[Linked Image from 76.com]](https://www.76.com/content/psx/psx_76/en/top-tier-gas/jcr%3acontent/root/responsivegrid/heroimage_708859505/hero-content/columns/two-columns-2/image.img.1024.png/1556897785107.png "[Linked Image from 76.com]")
OK - found it.
![[Linked Image from phillips66gas.com]](https://www.phillips66gas.com/content/psx/psx_p66/en/performance-gasoline/jcr%3acontent/root/responsivegrid/heroimage_708859505/hero-content/columns/two-columns-2/image.img.1024.png/1556898105002.png "[Linked Image from phillips66gas.com]")
![[Linked Image from conoco.com]](https://www.conoco.com/content/psx/psx_conoco/en/quality-fuel/jcr%3acontent/root/responsivegrid/heroimage_708859505/hero-content/columns/two-columns-2/image.img.1024.png/1556898152924.png "[Linked Image from conoco.com]")
Majority of gas stations that claim 'Top Tier' all get the minimum level of detergent needed to achieve 'Top Tier' as they do not want additional costs to end users. Another reason is that is injected at the terminal where they purchase the fuel so they do not have ability to add more. If 'Top Tier' is not labeled on the pump, you are most likely getting 'LAC' gasoline.
Again, it depends. Sunoco seems to be claiming that they're discontinuing the Top Tier license to save money, but haven't noted if they're changing the additive concentration. Shell and Chevron claim to be at a detergent level that far exceeds Top Tier requirements. Costco claims 5x the "EPA minimum". For the longest time BP was specifically recommended by BMW even though they hadn't been Top Tier licensed. However, it was usually the big names, even if they didn't go for Top Tier.
At least 76 (not sure about the other Phillips brands) claims that their additive level is 30% higher than what the Top Tier requirements would be.
OK - found it.
I go by what runs good around where I live.
And The Shell down the Hill - and in Haverhill, Ma - has been selling Swill since the beginning of time.
Absolute swamp water garbage.
Whats panned out over time is a Mobil station in town and a Irving station in Plaistow
That is it. Period. Everything else problematic
And the car seems to "prefer" a blend of the two fuels !
And The Shell down the Hill - and in Haverhill, Ma - has been selling Swill since the beginning of time.
Absolute swamp water garbage.
Whats panned out over time is a Mobil station in town and a Irving station in Plaistow
That is it. Period. Everything else problematic
And the car seems to "prefer" a blend of the two fuels !
Originally Posted by kschachn
Originally Posted by LubricatusObsess
There are many cheapo fuel outlets that don't spend the extra 3 cents per gallon for the extra additives needed to keep engines clean. Here in the Twin Cities, most of the gasoline outlets are not Top Tier - we have to plan our routes to end up near one of them. The 3 still here are Holiday, Kwik Trip, and Costco. Superamerica was another, but they sold to Marathon who decided to change to cheapo Speedway brand without Top Tier instead of their Marathon brand with Top Tier. Superamerica controlled 50% of the gasoline market here. I wrote them an email and they confirmed Speedway is not Top Tier. It is very important for modern engines that all have fuel injectors now.
How do you know the level of additives used at the stations that are not Top Tier? Of course they do need to be at the EPA minimum level, but beyond that you don't know if they are not the same as the Top Tier stations, do you? That's kind of the point of Top Tier that it is an outside agency that is guaranteeing a superior level or additives, but that doesn't mean a station without Top Tier certification does not use additional additives.
Bottom line is that they may not spend the extra "3 cents" but you don't know that they don't.
Technically correct. But it wouldn't make good marketing or business sense to spend the extra 3 cents per gallon for Top Tier additives at the terminal and not advertise this on your retail pumps. If advertising it costs extra, what does the supplier gain by buying the additives in the first place?
When I talked to the Marathon Rep., he said their Speedway gas brand did not have Top Tier extra additives, so they had to remove the Top Tier stickers from the former SuperAmerica gas pumps. That's why I wrote them, because they had a monopoly market share (50%) up here in flyover country.
Originally Posted by LubricatusObsess
There are many cheapo fuel outlets that don't spend the extra 3 cents per gallon for the extra additives needed to keep engines clean. Here in the Twin Cities, most of the gasoline outlets are not Top Tier - we have to plan our routes to end up near one of them. The 3 still here are Holiday, Kwik Trip, and Costco. Superamerica was another, but they sold to Marathon who decided to change to cheapo Speedway brand without Top Tier instead of their Marathon brand with Top Tier. Superamerica controlled 50% of the gasoline market here. I wrote them an email and they confirmed Speedway is not Top Tier. It is very important for modern engines that all have fuel injectors now.
How do you know the level of additives used at the stations that are not Top Tier? Of course they do need to be at the EPA minimum level, but beyond that you don't know if they are not the same as the Top Tier stations, do you? That's kind of the point of Top Tier that it is an outside agency that is guaranteeing a superior level or additives, but that doesn't mean a station without Top Tier certification does not use additional additives.
Bottom line is that they may not spend the extra "3 cents" but you don't know that they don't.
Technically correct. But it wouldn't make good marketing or business sense to spend the extra 3 cents per gallon for Top Tier additives at the terminal and not advertise this on your retail pumps. If advertising it costs extra, what does the supplier gain by buying the additives in the first place?
When I talked to the Marathon Rep., he said their Speedway gas brand did not have Top Tier extra additives, so they had to remove the Top Tier stickers from the former SuperAmerica gas pumps. That's why I wrote them, because they had a monopoly market share (50%) up here in flyover country.
Originally Posted by rrretiree7
Is it better than Gumout products??
Gumout has ingredients to protect from ethanol and is a solid performer. It's my go to if I can't get to Wichita to buy Redline Si-1 and such. Luckily I filled a tote full of oil,fi cleaner and such. I think Techron is fine, I have had good results using Redline and occasionally Gumout so it's what I use.
Is it better than Gumout products??
Gumout has ingredients to protect from ethanol and is a solid performer. It's my go to if I can't get to Wichita to buy Redline Si-1 and such. Luckily I filled a tote full of oil,fi cleaner and such. I think Techron is fine, I have had good results using Redline and occasionally Gumout so it's what I use.
Originally Posted by y_p_w
Originally Posted by PhilOilMan
Majority of gas stations that claim 'Top Tier' all get the minimum level of detergent needed to achieve 'Top Tier' as they do not want additional costs to end users. Another reason is that is injected at the terminal where they purchase the fuel so they do not have ability to add more. If 'Top Tier' is not labeled on the pump, you are most likely getting 'LAC' gasoline.
Again, it depends. Sunoco seems to be claiming that they're discontinuing the Top Tier license to save money, but haven't noted if they're changing the additive concentration. Shell and Chevron claim to be at a detergent level that far exceeds Top Tier requirements. Costco claims 5x the "EPA minimum". For the longest time BP was specifically recommended by BMW even though they hadn't been Top Tier licensed. However, it was usually the big names, even if they didn't go for Top Tier.
At least 76 (not sure about the other Phillips brands) claims that their additive level is 30% higher than what the Top Tier requirements would be.
OK - found it.
Thanks for the post. I'm sure QT has good fuel. I like their 87/91 non ethanol. I only give a splash of pea when using these fuels. If it's the Hy-Vee,Casey's or Murphy's garbage non ethanol then I give it a bit more more often. I wasn't surprised by the TT rating,but shocked that p66 had way more detergents. Great chart to look at. I would wonder how much microtreating of pea would be needed in TT fuel as it still can't touch GDi cleaning additives.
Originally Posted by PhilOilMan
Majority of gas stations that claim 'Top Tier' all get the minimum level of detergent needed to achieve 'Top Tier' as they do not want additional costs to end users. Another reason is that is injected at the terminal where they purchase the fuel so they do not have ability to add more. If 'Top Tier' is not labeled on the pump, you are most likely getting 'LAC' gasoline.
Again, it depends. Sunoco seems to be claiming that they're discontinuing the Top Tier license to save money, but haven't noted if they're changing the additive concentration. Shell and Chevron claim to be at a detergent level that far exceeds Top Tier requirements. Costco claims 5x the "EPA minimum". For the longest time BP was specifically recommended by BMW even though they hadn't been Top Tier licensed. However, it was usually the big names, even if they didn't go for Top Tier.
At least 76 (not sure about the other Phillips brands) claims that their additive level is 30% higher than what the Top Tier requirements would be.
OK - found it.
Thanks for the post. I'm sure QT has good fuel. I like their 87/91 non ethanol. I only give a splash of pea when using these fuels. If it's the Hy-Vee,Casey's or Murphy's garbage non ethanol then I give it a bit more more often. I wasn't surprised by the TT rating,but shocked that p66 had way more detergents. Great chart to look at. I would wonder how much microtreating of pea would be needed in TT fuel as it still can't touch GDi cleaning additives.
Originally Posted by ARCOgraphite
I haven't found the need anymore. Fuels have PLENTY of detergency.
Seems to do more harm than good from past experience.
I had long/ hard starting after using Techron once. And it lasted for the remainder of the vehicles life.
Remainder of the vehicles life, sounds like you had bigger problems than Techron.
I haven't found the need anymore. Fuels have PLENTY of detergency.
Seems to do more harm than good from past experience.
I had long/ hard starting after using Techron once. And it lasted for the remainder of the vehicles life.
Remainder of the vehicles life, sounds like you had bigger problems than Techron.
I use Exxon 87 and a bottle of Amsoil PI every 5K.
1) To my recollection, cleaning off the fuel injector nozzles upon shut-down is the main thing the PEA does. If that's correct, and your small engines are carbureted, I'd guess you'd see little benefit.
2) I've read posts claiming that Techron (and possibly other brands) restored fuel gauge function. Some kind of dirt was claimed to be the problem. Even if that is factually accurate I doubt the can atop your mower would see any benefit.
3) I don't believe 2 stroke oil does any cleaning. It's there for lubrication.
Fresh gas (whether it's straight or mixed) is a small engine's best friend.
2) I've read posts claiming that Techron (and possibly other brands) restored fuel gauge function. Some kind of dirt was claimed to be the problem. Even if that is factually accurate I doubt the can atop your mower would see any benefit.
3) I don't believe 2 stroke oil does any cleaning. It's there for lubrication.
Fresh gas (whether it's straight or mixed) is a small engine's best friend.
I once visited on business a refinery that supplied both Chevron and a non-Top-Tier regional.
The guys at the refinery pointed out the relatively small tank where the Chevron-bound trucks would stop on the way out the refinery and get a few gallons of PEA I guess.
The detergents may be relatively inexpensive but they are still extra. The assumption should be that if it’s not Top Tier it doesn’t have the extra PEA.
I've got at least 2 life experiences that testify to this product's effectiveness. I believe it saved me from having to drop the tank on my Sport Trac when the gas gauge started reading low, and became slow to respond when the tank was filled. I poured in 2 bottles of Techron, filled the tank to the top of the filler neck, and by the time that tank of gas was burned, the gas gauge was back to normal. I then stopped using Racetrack gas, and it never happened again. This was back in 2009.
Back in 1996, a friend had a Mitsubishi 3000 GT (no turbos) and it had a bad stumble off idle, when accelerating. It also seemed lethargic, in general. I gave it the same treatment as my Sport Trac, and there was a very noticeable improvement after a couple of weeks.
None of my current vehicles are displaying behavior that would indicate dirty injectors, but if they did, Techron is where I'd turn. I've never tested a cleaner in a D.I. vehicle, so can't say if it has any effect on the injectors.
Back in 1996, a friend had a Mitsubishi 3000 GT (no turbos) and it had a bad stumble off idle, when accelerating. It also seemed lethargic, in general. I gave it the same treatment as my Sport Trac, and there was a very noticeable improvement after a couple of weeks.
None of my current vehicles are displaying behavior that would indicate dirty injectors, but if they did, Techron is where I'd turn. I've never tested a cleaner in a D.I. vehicle, so can't say if it has any effect on the injectors.
I don’t know where you come up with 3 cents a gallon to get top tier fuel, but I buy my gasoline from Sam’s Club that is 32 cents a gallon cheaper than name brand stations in this area and is consistently at or among the cheapest stations in New Hampshire. $0.32 times 26 gallons is $8.32 a tank and that buys a lot of Techron. I could add a bottle every fillup and still be ahead. Sams’s is also the freshest gasoline around, the place is always packed. I filled up at $2.12 and passed three gas station that are $2.45-$2.49.
Top Tier does not specify the amount of detergents in the fuel. Top Tier specifies a performance level, or specifically, a maximum amount of deposits inside an engine after using the fuel. If the fuel causes less than the maximum allowed deposits, it qualifies as Top Tier. That's how I understand it anyway. I'm sure someone will correct me LOL.
Yes all modern gasolines have detergents and cleaners, even gasolines that are not Top Tier. Generally I use fuel additives on occasion for maintenance. Chevron Techron, RedLine SI-1 and Gumout Complete are supposed to be the best, they all have polyether amine (PEA). I've used Techron Concentrate with good results.
Yes all modern gasolines have detergents and cleaners, even gasolines that are not Top Tier. Generally I use fuel additives on occasion for maintenance. Chevron Techron, RedLine SI-1 and Gumout Complete are supposed to be the best, they all have polyether amine (PEA). I've used Techron Concentrate with good results.
Sure. The performance doesn't necessarily "scale" in any consistent manner. Some might meet Top Tier requirements at 2x the EPA minimum while another might be at 3x. Maybe that much more will never meet Top Tier requirements because it will create deposits at a higher enough concentration. However, many fuel marketers have charts claiming that about 2.5x EPA minimum requirements will generally meet Top Tier testing requirements. Costco's claim of 5x the EPA minimum is only about the specific detergent that they use.
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