TCW-3 recommendations for Toro CCR-2000??

[LouC]

Ok I’ve had a Toro/Suzuki 3000 single stage for 27 years and researched this question both online & by talking to a Toro tech guy. Here’s the long & short of it, yes they recommended TCW-3 for all their 2 stroke snow engines whether it was Tecumseh, Suzuki or the Briggs. But, in their owners manuals they also say if unavailable you can use the 2 stroke oil for air cooled engines like for all your other yard equipment. Why did they advise that you use TCW-3? It’s because TCW-3 is ashless and the oil for air cooled engines is low ash, that is an anti wear agent that high revving 2 strokes need but slow running snow engines don’t. It tends to cause deposits to build up in the slower running cooler running snow engines.
Example: snow engine used in ambient temps lower than 32* F governed to only 3600 rpm
All other air cooled yard engines such as blowers, wackers, saws and hedge trimmers run like 3x as fast (like 9,000 rpm) and are used in anything from fall to the hottest summer weather.
So the theory is TCW-3 will result in less deposits in a 2 stroke snow blower engine. I removed the muffler to clean the exhaust port some years back & there was nothing to clean!
I currently use high octane E0 fuel with Pennzoil Marine TCW-3 full syn oil for the snow engine & Echo power blend for my Echo machines & Husquvarna saw. 2 stroke gas cans. But you can use the same air cooled oil for both…..

 

[UNC196]

Pragmatically, Richard Flagg does great oil tests and engine tear downs.

 

[Bwalker]

You don’t need a TCW3 oil. That’s a super outdated spec for boat motors.

The current spec for 2 stroke is JASO FD.

In that world, you have basics like Outdoor Power Equipment OPE oils, like Red Armor…they are decent.

Above that are power sports oils…dirt bikes, snowmobiles, and cart oils…Honda HP2 is the best of the best.

If your really want boat oil…Evinrude XD100.


Buy Honda HP2. If you need a local buy…Echo Red Armor is sold everywhere.

You dont know what your talking about. Toro, Lawnboy and Suzuki all spec TCW3 oils and for good reason. They are governed to a set rpm and low ash oils like Jaso FD cause problems.
Stick with a good quality TCW3 oil.

 

[Bwalker]

JASO FD is a pretty universal modern spec that exceeds the older specs. TCW3 is a marine engine spec that included reduced emissions for underwater exhaust of combustion materials that could pollute water. It also addressed the theory that marine engines are colder running than air cooled engines.

They stopped updating TCW3 after the last 2 stroke outboard maker went out of business…

I just run HP2 in everything, along with a stabilizer in ethanol free fuel.

Wrong on all accounts.
You are aware that JASO FD is 30 some years old?

 

[UNC196]

Wrong on all accounts.
You are aware that JASO FD is 30 some years old?

Do you have a more modern standard?

 

[LouC]

I bought a gallon of Pennzoil Marine full syn TCW-3 and in about 10 years I've only used 1/2 of it because it's only for the snowblower. That gallon of TCW-3 can make approx 40 gallons of 50:1 2 stroke fuel! They don't sell the full syn version any longer but sell the XLF TCW3 (syn blend) which is probably nearly as good. With E-0 fuel, the Toro starts on the 2nd pull every time and runs smoothly with hardly any smoke. And yes that spec (TCW3) is what Lawn Boy, Tecumseh and Toro recommended for their 2 stroke lawn mower and snow blower engines. Why? because they run much slower and cooler than other air cooled lawn engines like trimmers, saws and blowers (3600 vs 9000-12000) and the TCW-3 is ashless which results in less deposits. If you have both types of 2 strokes like I said above you can use the 2 stroke oil for air cooled engines in the Toro, according to them, but it's not their preference.

 

[Bwalker]

Do you have a more modern standard?

There isnt one and likely there will never be another. The two stroke market is about dead.

 

[Bwalker]

I bought a gallon of Pennzoil Marine full syn TCW-3 and in about 10 years I've only used 1/2 of it because it's only for the snowblower. That gallon of TCW-3 can make approx 40 gallons of 50:1 2 stroke fuel! They don't sell the full syn version any longer but sell the XLF TCW3 (syn blend) which is probably nearly as good. With E-0 fuel, the Toro starts on the 2nd pull every time and runs smoothly with hardly any smoke. And yes that spec (TCW3) is what Lawn Boy, Tecumseh and Toro recommended for their 2 stroke lawn mower and snow blower engines. Why? because they run much slower and cooler than other air cooled lawn engines like trimmers, saws and blowers (3600 vs 9000-12000) and the TCW-3 is ashless which results in less deposits. If you have both types of 2 strokes like I said above you can use the 2 stroke oil for air cooled engines in the Toro, according to them, but it's not their preference.
View attachment 323171

The recommendation for ashless tcw3 type oil is based on their running a constant throttle governed to a set rpm. The Lawn Boys run pretty hot in heavy grass.
And TCW3 oils will build more carbon and they are dirtier. But they are ashless so you dont get mettalic ash deposits on your piston crown and sparkplug.
In a TORO Rtek which is a piston port veraion of the reed valve LawnBoy Duraforce I would run 32:1 they have a very week big end rod bearing with an alluminum con rod. They are happier and also longer with a bit more oil.

 

[Bwalker]

The recommendation for ashless tcw3 type oil is based on their running a constant throttle governed to a set rpm. The Lawn Boys run pretty hot in heavy grass.
And TCW3 oils will build more carbon and they are dirtier. But they are ashless so you dont get mettalic ash deposits on your piston crown and sparkplug.
In a TORO Rtek which is a piston port veraion of the reed valve LawnBoy Duraforce I would run 32:1 they have a very week big end rod bearing with an alluminum con rod. They are happier and also longer with a bit more oil.
View attachment 323211

The other thing I didnt mention is ashless oils use an amine based dispersent that really doesn't work all that well and the hotter the motor gets the worse this becomes. Here is an example. Note the heavy carbon buildup, which was about to stick the ring.

 

[Mike72]

The recommendation for ashless tcw3 type oil is based on their running a constant throttle governed to a set rpm. The Lawn Boys run pretty hot in heavy grass.
And TCW3 oils will build more carbon and they are dirtier. But they are ashless so you dont get mettalic ash deposits on your piston crown and sparkplug.
In a TORO Rtek which is a piston port veraion of the reed valve LawnBoy Duraforce I would run 32:1 they have a very week big end rod bearing with an alluminum con rod. They are happier and also longer with a bit more oil.
View attachment 323211

The recommendation for ashless tcw3 type oil is based on their running a constant throttle governed to a set rpm. The Lawn Boys run pretty hot in heavy grass.
And TCW3 oils will build more carbon and they are dirtier. But they are ashless so you dont get mettalic ash deposits on your piston crown and sparkplug.
In a TORO Rtek which is a piston port veraion of the reed valve LawnBoy Duraforce I would run 32:1 they have a very week big end rod bearing with an alluminum con rod. They are happier and also longer with a bit more oil.
View attachment 323211

 

[Mike72]

The recommendation for ashless tcw3 type oil is based on their running a constant throttle governed to a set rpm. The Lawn Boys run pretty hot in heavy grass.
And TCW3 oils will build more carbon and they are dirtier. But they are ashless so you dont get mettalic ash deposits on your piston crown and sparkplug.
In a TORO Rtek which is a piston port veraion of the reed valve LawnBoy Duraforce I would run 32:1 they have a very week big end rod bearing with an alluminum con rod. They are happier and also longer with a bit more oil.
View attachment 323211


Interesting statements. Observing the tachometer on my Lawn Boy while mowing shows that the engine varies rpm from about 2500 to about 3200 depending on cutting load, The only time it holds steady at the maximum governed 3200 is when it is not under a load.

Yes, TCW-3 oils I have used were dirtier and built up more carbon on the piston, in the ports and on the spark plug, especially at 32:1. This required port and spark plug cleaning at short 25 to 30 hour intervals. Since I no longer use these oils in my Lawn Boy mowers and now use a 50:1 mix, I have extended port cleaning to 100 hour intervals with spark plugs going over 300 hours before fouling.

 

[Mike72]

The other thing I didnt mention is ashless oils use an amine based dispersent that really doesn't work all that well and the hotter the motor gets the worse this becomes. Here is an example. Note the heavy carbon buildup, which was about to stick the ring.
View attachment 323365

In the picture, are you sure that wasn’t oil glaze developing on the cylinder wall at that location. It has a very similar effect on a piston.

 

[Bwalker]

The recommendation for ashless tcw3 type oil is based on their running a constant throttle governed to a set rpm. The Lawn Boys run pretty hot in heavy grass.
And TCW3 oils will build more carbon and they are dirtier. But they are ashless so you dont get mettalic ash deposits on your piston crown and sparkplug.
In a TORO Rtek which is a piston port veraion of the reed valve LawnBoy Duraforce I would run 32:1 they have a very week big end rod bearing with an alluminum con rod. They are happier and also longer with a bit more oil.
View attachment 323211


Interesting statements. Observing the tachometer on my Lawn Boy while mowing shows that the engine varies rpm from about 2500 to about 3200 depending on cutting load, The only time it holds steady at the maximum governed 3200 is when it is not under a load.

Yes, TCW-3 oils I have used were dirtier and built up more carbon on the piston, in the ports and on the spark plug, especially at 32:1. This required port and spark plug cleaning at short 25 to 30 hour intervals. Since I no longer use these oils in my Lawn Boy mowers and now use a 50:1 mix, I have extended port cleaning to 100 hour intervals with spark plugs going over 300 hours before fouling.

Thats pretty steady. Unlike a chainsaw or a dirt bike that might go from 1500-15000 for a few seconds.
50:1 is a real bad move with older and the latter Duraforce Lawnboys.

 

[Bwalker]

In the picture, are you sure that wasn’t oil glaze developing on the cylinder wall at that location. It has a very similar effect on a piston.

The cylinders themselves were clean. Regardless of the source a low ash oil would not build carbon on the piston like that.
Here is a very high hour and hotter running air cooled motor that was ran on jaso fc/fd oils only.