TBN

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Originally Posted By: Doug Hillary
Hi,
with today's lubricants and fuels TBN alone is just one tool in the mix of UOA factors

Personally I (use) used both TAN and TBN (trended) as part of my determination of lubricant life in extended OCIs in heavy high speed diesel engines

Others of course may think differently but its what has worked for me for a very long time indeed


Doug, in many of the new M1 SN used oil analysis, people are finding TAN starting a bit high and ending up over 5 at times. I believe one UOA showed a Tbn of 4 with a TAN over 5. I couldn't tell you if those numbers coming from Blackstone are accurate. I will assume they are. What I want to know is whether these newer additives that fight acids are simply not showing up with conventional Tbn testing methods as Solarent pointed out.

I read one article that suggested once the Tbn/Tan cross, the oil is on it's way out and should be changed. I've seen used oil analysis where this occurred around the 3-5k mile mark.
 
Hi,
buster - Yes perhaps some more "practical" data may come to light in this Thread

In petrol engines at extended OCIs in my trended programmes the TAN was typically one third of the TBN

In extended OCIs in diesel engine families (trended) the TBN was about half of the TAN. But always above a minimum of 1. The lubricant's condemnation points here were always either Fe (at 150ppm) or Soot (at >3.5%)

IMO used oil analysis are only really truely valuable "at the extremes" when they are trended (in an engine family) and especially so with one particular engine
 
Doug,
maybe a question for another thread, but where's the line between "optimum" cost and "longest drain".

I know a few companies that buy particular branded utes as they have 15,000km OCI versus 10, or 5 during the warranty period, and that's less downtime.

On large transport, there's obviously a juggle between the capital cost of engines, ongoing maintenance, maintenance downtime, breakdown downtime, fuel consumption, and lubricant/filtration costs.

How do you model, rather than trend those things ?
 
Hi,
Shannow - This is a synopisis of the methods I and many of my Customers use/used to mdel outcomes from variances to "accepted" practice in the Trucking Industry. Accepted practices are very hard to break down due to inherent and natural conservatism, variable technical skill levels, mixed Fleets and applications etc.

The Manufacturers recommendations are stage one in the process

In Trucking these are typically conservative and based on Fleet maintenance and servicing processes outside a selling or servicing Dealership

Typically these cover daily checks (by the Driver), regularised Inspections by Service pesonnel to a set routine and OCIs as they have determined (along with the engine's manufacturer) for various applications. The results can be influenced by the skill levels of staff so training must always be considered

Stage two is confirming these in practice

With engine lubricants the base level lubricant and OCI is monitored. The same applies to drive line lubricants and their OCI. used oil analysis are a great tool at this stage.

The cost factors here (labour. oil and filters) are known. The downtime and operational management factors always intrude and typically lead to some "elasticity" in the actual intervals.

This can be dangerous as in OTR work the engine's OCI can be every two/three weeks or so. This takes a vehicle out of service for about one day at a time

Stage three - outside the square

At this stage "widening the envelope" is always a factor of the skills and enthusiasm of the personnel involved and the willingness to perservere

a) Starting with engine lubricants, once the base level (standard lubricant/filter) is confirmed (say 15kkms OCIs) used oil analysis will quickly tell at which stage the OCI is actually required.
In my experience this was at around 25kkm. Viscosity increase (soot) was typically a major condemnation factor and wear metal limits were rarely reached. The way individual lubricants handle elevated soot levels becomes evident quite quickly

b) A move to a better quality lubricant - say a semi-synthetic was the next stage. Typically this was good for around 35kkms - about a 50% increase in vehicle uptime at very little cost.

Again IME viscosity increase was a major factor

Already the vehicle downtime factor had been substantially reduced

Stage four - model the alternatives

The next stage is to economically model the alternatives - typically, as follows 1) move to better/different filters, 2) move to a better lubricant (stock levels/availability), 3) move to a better lubricant and filter
4) availability of service points/skilled personnel
Break even points are established on the way with the possibility of increased uptime as a bonus!

Of course I always continued with regularised drive-over-pit Inspections by skilled people and of course the documented daily Safety Inspections by every Driver. Drivers check coolant/lubricant levels, tyres wear/damage/perceived inflation, lights, belts etc. Typically this is a 15 minute job to a set and established/published routine that is "signed off" as a commitment

Stage five - confirming the moves
Typically this is done based on these factors: a) increased vehicle uptime as a bonus, b) monitoring component condition, c) lubricant condition (UOA at break even point then calculated intervals until OC required), d) filter condition and contents at OCI

The break even point in my move to a synthetic lubricant, LL filters and a By-Pass centrifuge occurred at double the distance of Stage three b) above (35kms x 2 = 70kkms)

My enduring actual average OCI across all vehicles was established at about 90kkms or six times the Manufacturer's recommended OCIs with a base level lubricant and filters

Vehicle downtime due to OCIs was reduced by a factor of six!

This was a saving in skilled peresonnel and operational distortions. It was much easier to plan for one day out of service in say five months instead of one day every three weeks

This is a typical outline. Most trucking Companies are conservative by nature, have "mixed"Fleets (Makes & types) and are reluctant to change too much!

Warranty concerns some as extended engine Warranties can extend up to 1m kms. High power engines here in Oz are around $40 000 to replace.

I can't quickly recall any lubricant caused engine failures except perhaps when an incorrect lubricant has been used cuasing sludging and the Manufacturer;s OCIs have not been followed as well

One gearbox of mine failed (on Hume thru Albury) after the oil was drained in Sydney at 1m kms and not refilled - the service point paid all costs (about $19K) of course!!

One of my engines was still going well at over 2m kms without overhaul the last time I spoke to its present Owner
Optimum

I always standardised on a compromise. Not the longest OCI but the safest at a point (90kkms) that was always reliable as determined by countless used oil analysis. Many times we went out to 110+kkms between OCIs and one engine went to 130kkms with all UOA factors in a reasonable state

I hope this is of interest
 
Doug,
as I've been in industrail asset management for a couple of decades, sounds like the basic principals and philosphies are teh same.

(We are operating equipment at 60% beyond it's design life, with 3x the OEM recommended service intervals, with reliabilty better than when the stuff was new, using pretty much the same measure, predict, stretch, measure again techniques).
 
Hi,
Shannow - My reasearch within the Trucking Industry commenced in 1973 and involved MB, Scania, Volvo GM, Cummins DD and etc. I spent a lot of time in Europe and NA during this time! Researching the very first Contract Maintenance programmes around the World was my driving force

Most Manufacturers were frustrated even then that improved manufacturing processes, metallurgies and the likes were not being reflected in operational improvements (reliability, extended life etc). This was largely due to conservatism and the training and job protection (guarded knowledge)levels that prevailed - prevail

I campaigned this in NZ and OZ at the highest of levels but always with mixed responses. Some Fleet Owners saw the benefits in reduced running costs and greater availability and were and are still being rewarded accordingly

Fleets under my management control embraced the concepts and practices (sometime reluctantly) but the resulting benefits paved the way

Some Manufacturers like Volvo and MB had all embracing Contract Maintenance programmes that helped further the process and forced changes through! I think I had MB Contract No3 in OZ and Volvos No 4! Some players were Oil Companires and Linfox etc!. I engineered the first International Harvester Contract maintenance programme around 1983 or so

These programmes enabled much better budgeting, Fleet control and increased uptime!!

The gap bewtween Euro and NA Manufacturers in terms of OCIs and Sevice intervals were strangely misaligned. Of them all Daimler AG (Heavy Trucks) were leaders but the thought of a Mack or Kenworth Badge overwhelmed reality in many cases when writing the cheques for Capital assets

Many Fleets in NZ and OZ still use my systems - some were set in place in 1975!
 
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