TBN, TAN, Ca, Mg, base-oil quality, oil life

[Gokhan]

Originally Posted By: Quattro Pete
Quote:
PS: How much a UOA with Wear Check costs? I see that they measure many more things than Blackstone. Do you think they are comparably reliable?

$24 if you want both TAN and TBN. Wearcheck uses the older ASTM TBN testing method, so in comparison to Blackstone, Wearcheck's TBN readings are typically slightly higher. Other than that, I think they're comparable, but as you noted, Wearcheck does provide more data... nitration, oxidation, etc. Added bonus with Wearcheck: you don't get comments such as "your TAN was fine at 5.1."

It sounds like a steal in comparison to Blackstone.

 

[Doug Hillary]

Hi,
As this thread was originally around diesel engines I'll drop in my bit

There are two Standards for TBN measurement - D4739 and D2896/ISO3771

Typically diesel engine Manufacturers with a LOT of knowledge of their HS Heavy Diesel engines set (typical) TBN limits as follows;


D4739 - 1 or 1/3 of new oil or perhaps 50% in some engine families

D2896/IS3771 - 2 or 1/3 of new oil or perhaps 50% in some engine families

In my own case the TBN or TAN never reached a point to determine the OCI, rather it was wear metal or soot condemnation levels!

Again in my case and at the average OCI of 90k kms the TAN averaged 30% of the new oil TBN. The OCI was around 4.5 months

My engines at tear down (around 1.1m kms) showed that all components including bearings were reusable

We agonise over relatively minor matters for most car owners!

IMO a 2 year OCI is probably acceptable for many people when using the OEM's approved specification lubricant and if not overwhelmed by a distance/operating time limit first

 

[Gokhan]

Originally Posted By: Gokhan
Originally Posted By: Quattro Pete
Quote:
PS: How much a UOA with Wear Check costs? I see that they measure many more things than Blackstone. Do you think they are comparably reliable?

$24 if you want both TAN and TBN. Wearcheck uses the older ASTM TBN testing method, so in comparison to Blackstone, Wearcheck's TBN readings are typically slightly higher. Other than that, I think they're comparable, but as you noted, Wearcheck does provide more data... nitration, oxidation, etc. Added bonus with Wearcheck: you don't get comments such as "your TAN was fine at 5.1."

It sounds like a steal in comparison to Blackstone.

OK, it looks like Wear Check is intended for professional industrial applications. How did you manage to order it? Any tips?

 

[CATERHAM]

Originally Posted By: Gokhan
Originally Posted By: CATERHAM
Originally Posted By: Gokhan
I would also not exceed 6 months or 6,000 miles.

Time is not a major factor in shorting an oil's service life, particularly in a warm climate, if the oil is always brought up to temperature every time an engine is started. For infrequently driven vehicles one can extend the oil change for many years and the oil will remain serviceable.

My point was that if an oil becomes more acidic (TAN exceeding TBN), it's not wise to keep it in the engine for very long periods. There must be a reason behind OEMs' strict recommendations on months for OCIs.

Yes there is a very good reason for OEM OCIs based on time in addition to mileage.
In many cases when the mileage is low it's due to very short trips and in worst case scenerios the oil may never come close to getting up to temperature ever, hence a rapid build-up of unburned fuel and condensation in the engine particularly in a cold climate so even a 6 month OCI may be too long.

On the other hand it's not uncommon where I live for retired "snowbirds" to have the oil changed in their car, park it in the garage, then fly down to Florida for six months. When they return home in the spring it's "time" to have the oil changed again even though the oil almost totally fresh.

Just to give another example. Toyota Canada recommends a 5,000 OCI while Toyota USA have extended it to 10,000 miles.
Toyota Canada is aware of the longer OCI allowed in the States and are sticking to 5,000 miles because of our winters which they correct state is harder on motor oil. Of course the conditions in the northern US are just as harsh as Southern Canada where the bulk of the Canadian population resides.

The OEM recommendations are based on averages.
The point is, one has to use a bit of common sense when interpreting OEM recommendations and how they apply to individual circumstances.

 

[Jeffs2006EvoIX]

[/quote]
Jeff's UOAs are looking OK. His engine seems to form a lot of acid in the oil. I would stick with Mobil 1 0W-40 SN, which has a strong initial TBN. I wouldn't worry about the high-SAPS and/or intake valve deposits. I would also not exceed 6 months or 6,000 miles. [/quote]

I am due for an oil change in the next 800 miles. At that point it will be 5k miles on M1 0w40 same driving conditions as with my 3k mile UOA. I want to see how the oil looks at 5k miles. As in the other topic we were involved in about 504 oils, I wanted to try the M1 ESP 5w30 this time. I am hesitant because of how quickly TBN drops with the 0w40. I am considering jumping off the "Approved" 502 list and go with Redline 5w30 Street oil since my understanding is Redline seems to hold up better to acids and may keep the TAN down while maintaining TBN better than M1. There is a "Euro" 504 Redline 5w30 that is Low Saps, that oil may hold up better than other 504's possibly due to the ester based in Redline.

This is why I get so hesitant on which oil to use. Unfortunately I did not get a TAN done on my PU UOA but TBN was 3.1 after 3k miles, which is lower than M1 0w40's which was 3.3. Also the PU did not stay in grade well. cSt was 11.2 on PU 5w40 vs. 12 for M1 0w40.

Why this engine is so tough on oil must be the gas here. Either that or the Alien German Iron in the block is leaching some creepy alien acids?? haha.

Its tough to want to experiment with something new when a good oil like M1 0w40 is barely able to hold on? We will see how the 5k UOA looks. Its just, what do I fill it up with? Keep the 0w40 M1 or try something new. Thats where I am at.

Thanks Quattro Pete for posting the link for my UOA saved me the trouble. Thanks bud

Jeff

 

[Jeffs2006EvoIX]

Originally Posted By: CATERHAM
Originally Posted By: Gokhan
Originally Posted By: CATERHAM
Originally Posted By: Gokhan
I would also not exceed 6 months or 6,000 miles.

Time is not a major factor in shorting an oil's service life, particularly in a warm climate, if the oil is always brought up to temperature every time an engine is started. For infrequently driven vehicles one can extend the oil change for many years and the oil will remain serviceable.

My point was that if an oil becomes more acidic (TAN exceeding TBN), it's not wise to keep it in the engine for very long periods. There must be a reason behind OEMs' strict recommendations on months for OCIs.

Yes there is a very good reason for OEM OCIs based on time in addition to mileage.
In many cases when the mileage is low it's due to very short trips and in worst case scenerios the oil may never come close to getting up to temperature ever, hence a rapid build-up of unburned fuel and condensation in the engine particularly in a cold climate so even a 6 month OCI may be too long.

On the other hand it's not uncommon where I live for retired "snowbirds" to have the oil changed in their car, park it in the garage, then fly down to Florida for six months. When they return home in the spring it's "time" to have the oil changed again even though the oil almost totally fresh.

Just to give another example. Toyota Canada recommends a 5,000 OCI while Toyota USA have extended it to 10,000 miles.
Toyota Canada is aware of the longer OCI allowed in the States and are sticking to 5,000 miles because of our winters which they correct state is harder on motor oil. Of course the conditions in the northern US are just as harsh as Southern Canada where the bulk of the Canadian population resides.

The OEM recommendations are based on averages.
The point is, one has to use a bit of common sense when interpreting OEM recommendations and how they apply to individual circumstances.


FOr my application I drive Rural driving and drive about 1000 miles a month. I am thinking of just sticking to the "old school" 3 months or 3k miles train of thought for my particular application. We will see what my 5k mile UOA looks like in a month or so.

Jeff

 

[Gokhan]

Hi Jeff,

Now learning about the acid-forming nature of your engine based on your UOAs, I would stay away from the low-SAPS oils and VW 504.00 / ACEA Cx oils. I would go with an ACEA A3/B4 oil with a very high initial TBN resulting from a quality detergent and with a high-quality base oil. High-quality base oil doesn't oxidize as rapidly and produce acid and high initial TBN will fight the acids resulting from the combustion and oxidization longer.

Also note that the formulation of the Pennzoil Ultra 5W-40 SN is radically different than the Pennzoil Ultra 5W-40 SM. I am guessing that the latter is what you used in your engine before.

I don't know what the initial TBN for the Red Line is. Note that its "5W-35" formulation is thinner than the M1 0W-40 and PU 5W-40.

Again, it's not how high TBN stays that matters but how high TBN - TAN (TBN minus TAN) stays. With a poor-quality detergent, TBN can stay high because the detergent isn't doing its work while the TAN rises rapidly because the detergent isn't doing its work.

 

[Jeffs2006EvoIX]

Originally Posted By: Gokhan
Hi Jeff,

Now learning about the acid-forming nature of your engine based on your UOAs, I would stay away from the low-SAPS oils and VW 504.00 / ACEA Cx oils. I would go with an ACEA A3/B4 oil with a very high initial TBN resulting from a quality detergent and with a high-quality base oil. High-quality base oil doesn't oxidize as rapidly and produce acid and high initial TBN will fight the acids resulting from the combustion and oxidization longer.

Also note that the formulation of the Pennzoil Ultra 5W-40 SN is radically different than the Pennzoil Ultra 5W-40 SM. I am guessing that the latter is what you used in your engine before.

I don't know what the initial TBN for the Red Line is. Note that its "5W-35" formulation is thinner than the M1 0W-40 and PU 5W-40.

Again, it's not how high TBN stays that matters but how high TBN - TAN (TBN minus TAN) stays. With a poor-quality detergent, TBN can stay high because the detergent isn't doing its work while the TAN rises rapidly because the detergent isn't doing its work.


Thanks for your replies...appreciate it.

Wouldn't Redline though fight this problem with its group 5 base stock? Thought I read somewhere that the TBN on Redline is lower than a PAO based oil but the Group 5 base stocks retain TBN while neutralizing acids better? Or am I wrong? If this is true, then Redline, though not "approved" may be the best choice for me? That or change the M1 0w40 every 3k miles? Granted, I would probably do the Redline 3-5k too.

Jeff

 

[Gokhan]

Originally Posted By: Jeffs2006EvoIX
Thanks for your replies...appreciate it.

Wouldn't Redline though fight this problem with its group 5 base stock? Thought I read somewhere that the TBN on Redline is lower than a PAO based oil but the Group 5 base stocks retain TBN while neutralizing acids better? Or am I wrong? If this is true, then Redline, though not "approved" may be the best choice for me? That or change the M1 0w40 every 3k miles? Granted, I would probably do the Redline 3-5k too.

Jeff

Well, the base oil doesn't neutralize the acids -- the alkalinity of the detergents do. However, the oxidization of the base oil leads to acids. Acids are also caused by the NO_x and SO_x gases generated during the combustion. On top of that, the ashless succinimide dispersants used in the virgin oil are acids themselves.

I don't know what's the source of the acid in your oil. Chances are that it's coming more from the combustion (NO_x) than the oxidization of the base oil. However, perhaps oxidization of the base oil is contributing a lot as well, since you have a hot turbo that oxidizes the base oil quickly.

Also note that Group V base oils have varying quality, some are not necessarily good. As I mentioned earlier, the new SN formulation of Pennzoil Ultra 5W-40 is using a different base oil than the SM, perhaps GTL.

For your application, higher initial TBN, higher-quality Ca detergents, higher phosphorus (ZDDP) levels (less oxidization), and lower NOACK (less oxidization) are better. You also need to keep the HTHSV higher than 3.5 - 3.8 cP. Avoid Mg-based detergents.

 

[Jeffs2006EvoIX]

I was considering giving the PU a try again. It does have a lower NOACK than the M1 but I can get the M1 for 1/2 the price. That is the thing about that.

Redline changed their formulas last year, but they use allot of Moly in their oil, well they used to. I ran Redline and Royal Purple HPS 10w40 in my past Evo's over the years. I used Royal Purple HPS 10w40 cause I was running WMI (water meth injection) and that oil is specifically formulated for alcohol fuels. Other than that, I ran Redline 5w30 in my Evo's (had 4 of them) ran the 5w30 with no issues on the street and the track did 3k OCI's UOA's always came out good too. Yeah I am a fan of Redline. Problem is VW is anal about oil while under warranty. The M1 is the cheapest to get, its good, but maybe I will try the PU again. Im thinking on it.

Jeff

 

[LazyPrizm]

Originally Posted By: Quattro Pete
Wearcheck uses the older ASTM TBN testing method, so in comparison to Blackstone, Wearcheck's TBN readings are typically slightly higher.


At some point Wearcheck switched to ASTM D4739, which is what I believe Blackstone and ANA use.

WearCheck MOB2 page

 

[OVERKILL]

Originally Posted By: Jeffs2006EvoIX
I was considering giving the PU a try again. It does have a lower NOACK than the M1 but I can get the M1 for 1/2 the price. That is the thing about that.

Redline changed their formulas last year, but they use allot of Moly in their oil, well they used to. I ran Redline and Royal Purple HPS 10w40 in my past Evo's over the years. I used Royal Purple HPS 10w40 cause I was running WMI (water meth injection) and that oil is specifically formulated for alcohol fuels. Other than that, I ran Redline 5w30 in my Evo's (had 4 of them) ran the 5w30 with no issues on the street and the track did 3k OCI's UOA's always came out good too. Yeah I am a fan of Redline. Problem is VW is anal about oil while under warranty. The M1 is the cheapest to get, its good, but maybe I will try the PU again. Im thinking on it.

Jeff


Keep in mind that M1 and probably PU are using the new tri-nuclear moly, which requires a fraction of the quantity to achieve the same results. So seeing boatloads of moly in the Redline doesn't mean that the effects are any more than the lesser quantity in the other two aforementioned oils, which have the better stuff in them.

When you own an additive company (Infineum) like Mobil/Shell do, it gives you a marked advantage over blenders who don't in terms of access to the latest technologies.

 

[Gokhan]

Originally Posted By: LazyPrizm
Originally Posted By: Quattro Pete
Wearcheck uses the older ASTM TBN testing method, so in comparison to Blackstone, Wearcheck's TBN readings are typically slightly higher.

At some point Wearcheck switched to ASTM D4739, which is what I believe Blackstone and ANA use.

WearCheck MOB2 page

Actually, the "older" ASTM D2896 method seems to be a more accurate method than the ASTM D4739. From the paper in the original post:

An issue that further complicates the TBN question,
is the fact that two commonly accepted measurement
methods are used: 1) ASTM D-2896, oftenmostly used
for fresh oils, and 2) ASTM D-4739, which is often used
for used oils. The two methods are similar in that they
involve adding a measured amount of acid to the oil until
all of the base has been consumed. The TBN is
calculated from the amount of acid required to
completely neutralize the lubricant. The difference
between the two methods comes in the choice of the
acid used, and solvent in which the oil is dissolved to run
the test. D-2896 uses a stronger acid than D-4739 and a
more polar solvent system. The combination of a
stronger acid and a more polar solvent results in a more
repeatable method., and insures that all of the base
present is measured. For some lubricant additive types,
D-4739 does not measure all the base that is present.
Table 1 shows some typical values for the ratio of TBN
by D-4739 / TBN by D-2896 for a number of additives
types. In general, D-4739 gives a lower result, but the
difference between the two methods is not consistent.
The D-4739 results are low for all ashless additives,
especially for some amine oxidation inhibitors.
Regardless of these differences, we have chosen to
show only TBNs by D-4739 as it has become the
accepted procedure for used oils.

Table 1
Difference Between ASTM D-2896 and D-4739

Additive Type .... D-4739 / D-2896 Ratio (Typical Value)

Phenate Detergent .... 0.96
Sulfonate Detergent .... 0.96
Ashless Dispersant .... 0.48
Amine Antioxidant .... 0.00

The inaccuracy in the TBN is yet another reason for not to look at the TBN alone but the TAN as well.

 

[Quattro Pete]

Originally Posted By: LazyPrizm
Originally Posted By: Quattro Pete
Wearcheck uses the older ASTM TBN testing method, so in comparison to Blackstone, Wearcheck's TBN readings are typically slightly higher.


At some point Wearcheck switched to ASTM D4739, which is what I believe Blackstone and ANA use.

WearCheck MOB2 page

Thanks for clarifying that. My info was from 2009.

 

[steve20]

Thought i remembered the esters in Redline's oil produce a higher than normal virgin TAN?
How do you plan to deal with this?

 

[CATERHAM]

Originally Posted By: OVERKILL
Originally Posted By: Jeffs2006EvoIX
I was considering giving the PU a try again. It does have a lower NOACK than the M1 but I can get the M1 for 1/2 the price. That is the thing about that.

Redline changed their formulas last year, but they use allot of Moly in their oil, well they used to. I ran Redline and Royal Purple HPS 10w40 in my past Evo's over the years. I used Royal Purple HPS 10w40 cause I was running WMI (water meth injection) and that oil is specifically formulated for alcohol fuels. Other than that, I ran Redline 5w30 in my Evo's (had 4 of them) ran the 5w30 with no issues on the street and the track did 3k OCI's UOA's always came out good too. Yeah I am a fan of Redline. Problem is VW is anal about oil while under warranty. The M1 is the cheapest to get, its good, but maybe I will try the PU again. Im thinking on it.

Jeff


Keep in mind that M1 and probably PU are using the new tri-nuclear moly, which requires a fraction of the quantity to achieve the same results. So seeing boatloads of moly in the Redline doesn't mean that the effects are any more than the lesser quantity in the other two aforementioned oils, which have the better stuff in them.

When you own an additive company (Infineum) like Mobil/Shell do, it gives you a marked advantage over blenders who don't in terms of access to the latest technologies.

Yes that's what Infineum would have us believe but it still doesn't explain the use of high levels of moly in M1 racing oils and presumably they're using the most effective type.

 

[Jeffs2006EvoIX]

Based on my UOA at 3k miles with M1 how on earth do people go 10k miles on an oil change? According to VW I can while under warranty as long as I use a 502 oil. There is no way I would go that long with a UOA like that. Again I'm curious to see what my 5k mile UOA will look like.

Jeff

 

[Gokhan]

Originally Posted By: Jeffs2006EvoIX
Based on my UOA at 3k miles with M1 how on earth do people go 10k miles on an oil change? According to VW I can while under warranty as long as I use a 502 oil. There is no way I would go that long with a UOA like that. Again I'm curious to see what my 5k mile UOA will look like.

Jeff

Hi Jeff,

Your UOA with M1 0W-40 SN isn't considered bad. I don't think the acidity had started to affect the wear much. M1 0W-40 SN seems to use a mix of PAO and Group V base stocks. Its NOACK is less than or equal to 10.0%, which is the MB 229.5 max allowed. Pennzoil Euro 0W-40 SN NOACK is 10.0%; so, it's not better than the M1 and it could actually be worse. 5W-40 NOACK will of course be less because the CCS/MRV is higher. I would stick with the Mobil 1 0W-40 SN -- you really won't be able to find a better oil for your application than M1 0W-40 with its Group IV/V base stocks, high initial TBN, high phosphorus (ZDDP), and high HTHSV. Pennzoil Euro 5W-40 is probably good too but I like the additive packages of Mobil 1 usually better (more chance of getting the trinuclear moly etc.), except when they use the ineffective Mg detergents as in Mobil 1 AFE SN and Mobil 1 EP SN that may have trouble keeping the TAN low.

I have my reservations against boutique oils like Red Line. Does a pure Group V oil protect that well or have some significant disadvantages? Also, 6% NOACK is horribly high for a CCS of 6000 cP @ -30 C. With PAO, it would only be 3% for such a high CCS and you can even attain 6% for 6000 cP @ -30 °C with Group III. In fact, this doesn't even seem to qualify to be a 5W- oil. See the chart below for the relationship between NOACK and CCS for a given base stock:

 

[Quattro Pete]

Originally Posted By: Gokhan
M1 0W-40 SN seems to use a mix of PAO and Group V base stocks. Its NOACK is less than or equal to 10.0%, which is the MB 229.5 max allowed.

M1 0w-40 is predominantly VISOM these days (group III+). Its Noack is 8.8%.

Quote:
Pennzoil Euro 0W-40 SN NOACK is 10.0%; so, it's not better than the M1 and it could actually be worse.

PUE 5w-40 is GTL-based. Its Noack is 6.8%.

 

[Gokhan]

Originally Posted By: Quattro Pete
Originally Posted By: Gokhan
M1 0W-40 SN seems to use a mix of PAO and Group V base stocks. Its NOACK is less than or equal to 10.0%, which is the MB 229.5 max allowed.

M1 0w-40 is predominantly VISOM these days (group III+). Its Noack is 8.8%.

Quote:
Pennzoil Euro 0W-40 SN NOACK is 10.0%; so, it's not better than the M1 and it could actually be worse.

PUE 5w-40 is GTL-based. Its Noack is 6.8%.

Hi Quattro Pete,

Why is there a belief that the M1 0W-40 SN is predominantly VISOM (Group III+)?

Do you know the CCS for the M1 0W-40 SN? If you look at the chart above, it's impossible to achieve 8.8% NOACK for the 0W- CCS range with a Group III base stock.