Can anyone explain why my cousin's 00 or 01 BMW is leaking oil, I don't know exactly which gasket, but he complained about it, when the car was fed synthetic all it's life?
Synthetic oil snafus
- Thread starter spock1
- Start date
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I remember back in '93 I changed the Harley from conventional 50w to M1 somethingW-50. It dropped the oil temp about 10 degrees. I can't say it did anything else, but it did do that.
I'm just going to touch on a few posts that are new and leave it at that...
Originally Posted By: tc1446
Spook, you got em going on this one. If I wanted to crawl under my 3 vehicles every 5K or less I'd use conventional too. But I don't. I use syn, a good filter, and run them 10k. Works for me; your miles may vary...........
I run conventional and just put in 6 oz make up oil at 7,300 miles. I take it between 7,000-9,000 miles. No one says that conventional oils are spent at 5k. Mobil sure does not with their conventional if the vehicle MFG says to go longer. Same with Pennzoil, QS and Valvoline.
Originally Posted By: gathermewool
I disagree with both the OP and Bill. Bill, as a mod you should be careful with taking absolute positions (especially when you then make a contradictory statement about synthetic applications.) Who gives a flying [censored] about what the manual says with respect to OCI on this site where extended OCI's are the norm. IMO, manufacturers stating to follow a certain OCI regardless of whether a greater-than-spec'd oil is used is simply to cover their butts.
Really? Go check out the UOA section. The threads on what your latest oil change is and the "norm" is NOT extended with most members and oils.
Originally Posted By: il_signore97
Bill,
Respectfully, you are entitled to your views and opinions. But please state them as such.
I have been enjoying the BENEFITS of synthetic oils for many many years. Specifically, I do not change my oil as per the manufacturer's recommendations. I am able to drive right past them, doubling, often tripling the recommened severe service OCI for my vehicles. This is done in all kinds of weather, with all kinds of driving.
Is this conclusive evidence that sythetic oil can be used universally for 3 times the recommended OCI? No, not at all. Does it show that this CAN be done if implemented correctly? Absolutely.
I have never had an engine or lubrication-related problem with any vehicle that I have owned or maintained. I don't care about saving 2 cents worth of oil just to change my oil 3 times more often than I do. I don't concern myself as to whether synthetic oil is better or not than conventional. I will never ever know if it produces a longer lasting engine or not... Nor will I ever care.
...just for the record: Your 1986 Jetta did not have any fancy particulate filters to protect, nor did it have any other advanced emission-related components. It did not call for an ACEA A3 rated oil that was meant to last up to 20,000 km under severe service OCI's. That's why they require 504/507/etc oil now. Not because the engine "NEEDS" it.
Quite a few vehicle can NOT go 2, 3 times the recommended OCI on ANY oil. Nor should they.
So the new gas powered Jettas have particulate filters? Why?
Originally Posted By: gfh77665
Originally Posted By: Bill in Utah
Longer OCI? Wrong.
Cleaner engine? Wrong.
Bill
So, just asking, you are saying Mobil 5000 is perfectly equivalent to Mobil 1 EP, which Mobil says: " delivers guaranteed protection of critical engine parts for 15,000 miles.".
And, Pennzoil YB is perfectly equivalent to Pennzoil Ultra, which SOPUS says is THE ultimate cleaner?
I don't get wound up in the marketing drool. If I ever take the valve cover off my Toyota (its only got 231,000 miles on it right now) I'd bet large amounts of money it will be just as clean as any other one run on syn. My Ford Taurus sure was when it was taken apart the 2 times. All it saw was conventional pennzoil most of its life. Did not see Ultra with its "factory clean" additives. All it was API SL....
Oh and yes in normal engines following the recommended OCI both Mobil products you quoted will perform the same. Overheat any modern engine oil is not going to save it if there is no coolant in it. Heads will warp and hopefully (for you) the block does not follow. Seen it happen with both conventional and syn oils and its not pretty. If the thing is over heating the best thing is to shut it down and FIX IT.
Snap a timing belt and no matter what oil you use the valves with get damaged if both engines are interference motors.
Originally Posted By: 2K2AcuraTL
Originally Posted By: gfh77665
Originally Posted By: Bill in Utah
Longer OCI? Wrong.
Cleaner engine? Wrong.
Bill
So, just asking, you are saying Mobil 5000 is perfectly equivalent to Mobil 1 EP, which Mobil says: " delivers guaranteed protection of critical engine parts for 15,000 miles.".
And, Pennzoil YB is perfectly equivalent to Pennzoil Ultra, which SOPUS says is THE ultimate cleaner?
I was thinking of the same question/angle....
Hmmm.. no one has rebutted to this one yet....
///
I dont subscribe to the point of view that a synth does not offer greater advantages over dino.. plain and simple.!! Although I agree where synth can be a waste of money in some application/engines.
Sorry some of us have to work and add a 90 minute one way commute and not going to answer right away.
Agree with your last sentence though!
Originally Posted By: CATERHAM
There is only one reason to even consider not using synthetic oil and that is cost.
And if one thinks about it carefully, the perceived up front savings you might realize on the initial purchase on an inferior mineral lube may not pay off in the long run.
What is the long run? 200,000 miles? 300,000 miles? When will the engines fail (or have problems) using the inferior lube? Is today's conventional worst than yesterday's conventional?
Just want to know when I need to be worried about my engines stopping and leaving me on the side of the road. (For the record never had one yet in over many decades of driving MANY miles)
Originally Posted By: gathermewool
I meant no disrespect toward Bill; I would have stated the same to any one who seemed to be in a position of authority, such as those here who have very high post counts. The point I in-eloquently tried to get across is that to be absolute on anything leaves room for error. If some one posts that you should absolutely do something or not, or that something is absolutely true or not, then you should have questions.
Dude no problem!
Originally Posted By: Mr_Incredible
I remember back in '93 I changed the Harley from conventional 50w to M1 somethingW-50. It dropped the oil temp about 10 degrees. I can't say it did anything else, but it did do that.
Apples and Oranges unless your harley is water cooled.
Guys if you want to run syn go for it! But PLEASE don't say that others can not get value and long life using conventional because that is NOT TRUE. Millions do and that is just what I'm trying to get across.
Is there some improvement with syn? Sure but the average person in the average area is not going to get the benefits IMO. We see it here all the time. And when you ask them why are they running x brand of syn y miles they said it just needed to be changed. Ah no it did not.
We have tons of people who read this forum. I've always wanted the facts to come across and it just kills me to read the words inferior when that is not the fact.
Take care all, Bill
Originally Posted By: tc1446
Spook, you got em going on this one. If I wanted to crawl under my 3 vehicles every 5K or less I'd use conventional too. But I don't. I use syn, a good filter, and run them 10k. Works for me; your miles may vary...........
I run conventional and just put in 6 oz make up oil at 7,300 miles. I take it between 7,000-9,000 miles. No one says that conventional oils are spent at 5k. Mobil sure does not with their conventional if the vehicle MFG says to go longer. Same with Pennzoil, QS and Valvoline.
Originally Posted By: gathermewool
I disagree with both the OP and Bill. Bill, as a mod you should be careful with taking absolute positions (especially when you then make a contradictory statement about synthetic applications.) Who gives a flying [censored] about what the manual says with respect to OCI on this site where extended OCI's are the norm. IMO, manufacturers stating to follow a certain OCI regardless of whether a greater-than-spec'd oil is used is simply to cover their butts.
Really? Go check out the UOA section. The threads on what your latest oil change is and the "norm" is NOT extended with most members and oils.
Originally Posted By: il_signore97
Bill,
Respectfully, you are entitled to your views and opinions. But please state them as such.
I have been enjoying the BENEFITS of synthetic oils for many many years. Specifically, I do not change my oil as per the manufacturer's recommendations. I am able to drive right past them, doubling, often tripling the recommened severe service OCI for my vehicles. This is done in all kinds of weather, with all kinds of driving.
Is this conclusive evidence that sythetic oil can be used universally for 3 times the recommended OCI? No, not at all. Does it show that this CAN be done if implemented correctly? Absolutely.
I have never had an engine or lubrication-related problem with any vehicle that I have owned or maintained. I don't care about saving 2 cents worth of oil just to change my oil 3 times more often than I do. I don't concern myself as to whether synthetic oil is better or not than conventional. I will never ever know if it produces a longer lasting engine or not... Nor will I ever care.
...just for the record: Your 1986 Jetta did not have any fancy particulate filters to protect, nor did it have any other advanced emission-related components. It did not call for an ACEA A3 rated oil that was meant to last up to 20,000 km under severe service OCI's. That's why they require 504/507/etc oil now. Not because the engine "NEEDS" it.
Quite a few vehicle can NOT go 2, 3 times the recommended OCI on ANY oil. Nor should they.
So the new gas powered Jettas have particulate filters? Why?
Originally Posted By: gfh77665
Originally Posted By: Bill in Utah
Longer OCI? Wrong.
Cleaner engine? Wrong.
Bill
So, just asking, you are saying Mobil 5000 is perfectly equivalent to Mobil 1 EP, which Mobil says: " delivers guaranteed protection of critical engine parts for 15,000 miles.".
And, Pennzoil YB is perfectly equivalent to Pennzoil Ultra, which SOPUS says is THE ultimate cleaner?
I don't get wound up in the marketing drool. If I ever take the valve cover off my Toyota (its only got 231,000 miles on it right now) I'd bet large amounts of money it will be just as clean as any other one run on syn. My Ford Taurus sure was when it was taken apart the 2 times. All it saw was conventional pennzoil most of its life. Did not see Ultra with its "factory clean" additives. All it was API SL....
Oh and yes in normal engines following the recommended OCI both Mobil products you quoted will perform the same. Overheat any modern engine oil is not going to save it if there is no coolant in it. Heads will warp and hopefully (for you) the block does not follow. Seen it happen with both conventional and syn oils and its not pretty. If the thing is over heating the best thing is to shut it down and FIX IT.
Snap a timing belt and no matter what oil you use the valves with get damaged if both engines are interference motors.
Originally Posted By: 2K2AcuraTL
Originally Posted By: gfh77665
Originally Posted By: Bill in Utah
Longer OCI? Wrong.
Cleaner engine? Wrong.
Bill
So, just asking, you are saying Mobil 5000 is perfectly equivalent to Mobil 1 EP, which Mobil says: " delivers guaranteed protection of critical engine parts for 15,000 miles.".
And, Pennzoil YB is perfectly equivalent to Pennzoil Ultra, which SOPUS says is THE ultimate cleaner?
I was thinking of the same question/angle....
Hmmm.. no one has rebutted to this one yet....
///
I dont subscribe to the point of view that a synth does not offer greater advantages over dino.. plain and simple.!! Although I agree where synth can be a waste of money in some application/engines.
Sorry some of us have to work and add a 90 minute one way commute and not going to answer right away.
Agree with your last sentence though!
Originally Posted By: CATERHAM
There is only one reason to even consider not using synthetic oil and that is cost.
And if one thinks about it carefully, the perceived up front savings you might realize on the initial purchase on an inferior mineral lube may not pay off in the long run.
What is the long run? 200,000 miles? 300,000 miles? When will the engines fail (or have problems) using the inferior lube? Is today's conventional worst than yesterday's conventional?
Just want to know when I need to be worried about my engines stopping and leaving me on the side of the road. (For the record never had one yet in over many decades of driving MANY miles)
Originally Posted By: gathermewool
I meant no disrespect toward Bill; I would have stated the same to any one who seemed to be in a position of authority, such as those here who have very high post counts. The point I in-eloquently tried to get across is that to be absolute on anything leaves room for error. If some one posts that you should absolutely do something or not, or that something is absolutely true or not, then you should have questions.
Dude no problem!
Originally Posted By: Mr_Incredible
I remember back in '93 I changed the Harley from conventional 50w to M1 somethingW-50. It dropped the oil temp about 10 degrees. I can't say it did anything else, but it did do that.
Apples and Oranges unless your harley is water cooled.
Guys if you want to run syn go for it! But PLEASE don't say that others can not get value and long life using conventional because that is NOT TRUE. Millions do and that is just what I'm trying to get across.
Is there some improvement with syn? Sure but the average person in the average area is not going to get the benefits IMO. We see it here all the time. And when you ask them why are they running x brand of syn y miles they said it just needed to be changed. Ah no it did not.
We have tons of people who read this forum. I've always wanted the facts to come across and it just kills me to read the words inferior when that is not the fact.
Take care all, Bill
The way I look at the Dino vs Syn debate is if the car requires Syn then use it. For example my VW 2.0T requires VW 502 spec oil, which is a syn oil. In this case I will always be using a Syn oil in this vehicle. The Nitro on the otherhand, Chrysler specs oils meeting MS-6395 which a variety of both Dino and Syn oils do. In this case I choose what ever I want to. I tend to go Syn due to our cold winters up here as well as some towing I do in the summer. I'm sure Dino oil would suffice, but I usual buy oil during sales and the overall cost is very close.
Subbed.
Aside from the cost, give me one parameter where conventional oil is not inferior. And with the incentives they give on the syn in US, it comes down to free for me. 5k miles is less than 2 weeks of work for me. So, why not run synthetic?
Dino could be better lube than synthetic oil if you disregard extreme low and hot temp properties. It's more polar, solutiabilty, molecular size diversity (to get into gaps of bearing), seal compatibility. There is no scientific proof that dino is inferior than synthetic oil as lube. In some cases, dino is better. You have to remove the extra additives. All depend on engine design. A well designed engine can last over millions miles use only dino oil. Recent study found that 80% engine failure is cooling related (coolant change, water pump change, radiator change, head gasket change). Some people in this forum use filted used oil in thier car since used oil still has useful life in it because people change oil too soon.
Last edited:
Originally Posted By: Bill in Utah
I'm just going to touch on a few posts that are new and leave it at that...
Originally Posted By: tc1446
Spook, you got em going on this one. If I wanted to crawl under my 3 vehicles every 5K or less I'd use conventional too. But I don't. I use syn, a good filter, and run them 10k. Works for me; your miles may vary...........
I run conventional and just put in 6 oz make up oil at 7,300 miles. I take it between 7,000-9,000 miles. No one says that conventional oils are spent at 5k. Mobil sure does not with their conventional if the vehicle MFG says to go longer. Same with Pennzoil, QS and Valvoline.
Originally Posted By: gathermewool
I disagree with both the OP and Bill. Bill, as a mod you should be careful with taking absolute positions (especially when you then make a contradictory statement about synthetic applications.) Who gives a flying [censored] about what the manual says with respect to OCI on this site where extended OCI's are the norm. IMO, manufacturers stating to follow a certain OCI regardless of whether a greater-than-spec'd oil is used is simply to cover their butts.
Really? Go check out the UOA section. The threads on what your latest oil change is and the "norm" is NOT extended with most members and oils.
Originally Posted By: il_signore97
Bill,
Respectfully, you are entitled to your views and opinions. But please state them as such.
I have been enjoying the BENEFITS of synthetic oils for many many years. Specifically, I do not change my oil as per the manufacturer's recommendations. I am able to drive right past them, doubling, often tripling the recommened severe service OCI for my vehicles. This is done in all kinds of weather, with all kinds of driving.
Is this conclusive evidence that sythetic oil can be used universally for 3 times the recommended OCI? No, not at all. Does it show that this CAN be done if implemented correctly? Absolutely.
I have never had an engine or lubrication-related problem with any vehicle that I have owned or maintained. I don't care about saving 2 cents worth of oil just to change my oil 3 times more often than I do. I don't concern myself as to whether synthetic oil is better or not than conventional. I will never ever know if it produces a longer lasting engine or not... Nor will I ever care.
...just for the record: Your 1986 Jetta did not have any fancy particulate filters to protect, nor did it have any other advanced emission-related components. It did not call for an ACEA A3 rated oil that was meant to last up to 20,000 km under severe service OCI's. That's why they require 504/507/etc oil now. Not because the engine "NEEDS" it.
Quite a few vehicle can NOT go 2, 3 times the recommended OCI on ANY oil. Nor should they.
So the new gas powered Jettas have particulate filters? Why?
Originally Posted By: gfh77665
Originally Posted By: Bill in Utah
Longer OCI? Wrong.
Cleaner engine? Wrong.
Bill
So, just asking, you are saying Mobil 5000 is perfectly equivalent to Mobil 1 EP, which Mobil says: " delivers guaranteed protection of critical engine parts for 15,000 miles.".
And, Pennzoil YB is perfectly equivalent to Pennzoil Ultra, which SOPUS says is THE ultimate cleaner?
I don't get wound up in the marketing drool. If I ever take the valve cover off my Toyota (its only got 231,000 miles on it right now) I'd bet large amounts of money it will be just as clean as any other one run on syn. My Ford Taurus sure was when it was taken apart the 2 times. All it saw was conventional pennzoil most of its life. Did not see Ultra with its "factory clean" additives. All it was API SL....
Oh and yes in normal engines following the recommended OCI both Mobil products you quoted will perform the same. Overheat any modern engine oil is not going to save it if there is no coolant in it. Heads will warp and hopefully (for you) the block does not follow. Seen it happen with both conventional and syn oils and its not pretty. If the thing is over heating the best thing is to shut it down and FIX IT.
Snap a timing belt and no matter what oil you use the valves with get damaged if both engines are interference motors.
Originally Posted By: 2K2AcuraTL
Originally Posted By: gfh77665
Originally Posted By: Bill in Utah
Longer OCI? Wrong.
Cleaner engine? Wrong.
Bill
So, just asking, you are saying Mobil 5000 is perfectly equivalent to Mobil 1 EP, which Mobil says: " delivers guaranteed protection of critical engine parts for 15,000 miles.".
And, Pennzoil YB is perfectly equivalent to Pennzoil Ultra, which SOPUS says is THE ultimate cleaner?
I was thinking of the same question/angle....
Hmmm.. no one has rebutted to this one yet....
///
I dont subscribe to the point of view that a synth does not offer greater advantages over dino.. plain and simple.!! Although I agree where synth can be a waste of money in some application/engines.
Sorry some of us have to work and add a 90 minute one way commute and not going to answer right away.
Agree with your last sentence though!
Originally Posted By: CATERHAM
There is only one reason to even consider not using synthetic oil and that is cost.
And if one thinks about it carefully, the perceived up front savings you might realize on the initial purchase on an inferior mineral lube may not pay off in the long run.
What is the long run? 200,000 miles? 300,000 miles? When will the engines fail (or have problems) using the inferior lube? Is today's conventional worst than yesterday's conventional?
Just want to know when I need to be worried about my engines stopping and leaving me on the side of the road. (For the record never had one yet in over many decades of driving MANY miles)
Originally Posted By: gathermewool
I meant no disrespect toward Bill; I would have stated the same to any one who seemed to be in a position of authority, such as those here who have very high post counts. The point I in-eloquently tried to get across is that to be absolute on anything leaves room for error. If some one posts that you should absolutely do something or not, or that something is absolutely true or not, then you should have questions.
Dude no problem!
Originally Posted By: Mr_Incredible
I remember back in '93 I changed the Harley from conventional 50w to M1 somethingW-50. It dropped the oil temp about 10 degrees. I can't say it did anything else, but it did do that.
Apples and Oranges unless your harley is water cooled.
Guys if you want to run syn go for it! But PLEASE don't say that others can not get value and long life using conventional because that is NOT TRUE. Millions do and that is just what I'm trying to get across.
Is there some improvement with syn? Sure but the average person in the average area is not going to get the benefits IMO. We see it here all the time. And when you ask them why are they running x brand of syn y miles they said it just needed to be changed. Ah no it did not.
We have tons of people who read this forum. I've always wanted the facts to come across and it just kills me to read the words inferior when that is not the fact.
Bill no offence but I wouldn't have a problem if you said quality, name brand, GP II based mineral oils are good enough in most non extreme applications and can deliver long engine life.
But you go beyond that and make absolute statements that simply are not true.
Mineral oils use base stocks that are technically inferior to oils derived from synthetic base stocks. That means the fluids used have much lower natural viscosity indexes and leave more residue when burned. This is not subject to opinion this is FACT.
Whether the use of superior synthetic base oils results in a significantly better final finished oil one can argue depending on the skill of the formulator and the application in which the oil will be used.
I'm just going to touch on a few posts that are new and leave it at that...
Originally Posted By: tc1446
Spook, you got em going on this one. If I wanted to crawl under my 3 vehicles every 5K or less I'd use conventional too. But I don't. I use syn, a good filter, and run them 10k. Works for me; your miles may vary...........
I run conventional and just put in 6 oz make up oil at 7,300 miles. I take it between 7,000-9,000 miles. No one says that conventional oils are spent at 5k. Mobil sure does not with their conventional if the vehicle MFG says to go longer. Same with Pennzoil, QS and Valvoline.
Originally Posted By: gathermewool
I disagree with both the OP and Bill. Bill, as a mod you should be careful with taking absolute positions (especially when you then make a contradictory statement about synthetic applications.) Who gives a flying [censored] about what the manual says with respect to OCI on this site where extended OCI's are the norm. IMO, manufacturers stating to follow a certain OCI regardless of whether a greater-than-spec'd oil is used is simply to cover their butts.
Really? Go check out the UOA section. The threads on what your latest oil change is and the "norm" is NOT extended with most members and oils.
Originally Posted By: il_signore97
Bill,
Respectfully, you are entitled to your views and opinions. But please state them as such.
I have been enjoying the BENEFITS of synthetic oils for many many years. Specifically, I do not change my oil as per the manufacturer's recommendations. I am able to drive right past them, doubling, often tripling the recommened severe service OCI for my vehicles. This is done in all kinds of weather, with all kinds of driving.
Is this conclusive evidence that sythetic oil can be used universally for 3 times the recommended OCI? No, not at all. Does it show that this CAN be done if implemented correctly? Absolutely.
I have never had an engine or lubrication-related problem with any vehicle that I have owned or maintained. I don't care about saving 2 cents worth of oil just to change my oil 3 times more often than I do. I don't concern myself as to whether synthetic oil is better or not than conventional. I will never ever know if it produces a longer lasting engine or not... Nor will I ever care.
...just for the record: Your 1986 Jetta did not have any fancy particulate filters to protect, nor did it have any other advanced emission-related components. It did not call for an ACEA A3 rated oil that was meant to last up to 20,000 km under severe service OCI's. That's why they require 504/507/etc oil now. Not because the engine "NEEDS" it.
Quite a few vehicle can NOT go 2, 3 times the recommended OCI on ANY oil. Nor should they.
So the new gas powered Jettas have particulate filters? Why?
Originally Posted By: gfh77665
Originally Posted By: Bill in Utah
Longer OCI? Wrong.
Cleaner engine? Wrong.
Bill
So, just asking, you are saying Mobil 5000 is perfectly equivalent to Mobil 1 EP, which Mobil says: " delivers guaranteed protection of critical engine parts for 15,000 miles.".
And, Pennzoil YB is perfectly equivalent to Pennzoil Ultra, which SOPUS says is THE ultimate cleaner?
I don't get wound up in the marketing drool. If I ever take the valve cover off my Toyota (its only got 231,000 miles on it right now) I'd bet large amounts of money it will be just as clean as any other one run on syn. My Ford Taurus sure was when it was taken apart the 2 times. All it saw was conventional pennzoil most of its life. Did not see Ultra with its "factory clean" additives. All it was API SL....
Oh and yes in normal engines following the recommended OCI both Mobil products you quoted will perform the same. Overheat any modern engine oil is not going to save it if there is no coolant in it. Heads will warp and hopefully (for you) the block does not follow. Seen it happen with both conventional and syn oils and its not pretty. If the thing is over heating the best thing is to shut it down and FIX IT.
Snap a timing belt and no matter what oil you use the valves with get damaged if both engines are interference motors.
Originally Posted By: 2K2AcuraTL
Originally Posted By: gfh77665
Originally Posted By: Bill in Utah
Longer OCI? Wrong.
Cleaner engine? Wrong.
Bill
So, just asking, you are saying Mobil 5000 is perfectly equivalent to Mobil 1 EP, which Mobil says: " delivers guaranteed protection of critical engine parts for 15,000 miles.".
And, Pennzoil YB is perfectly equivalent to Pennzoil Ultra, which SOPUS says is THE ultimate cleaner?
I was thinking of the same question/angle....
Hmmm.. no one has rebutted to this one yet....
///
I dont subscribe to the point of view that a synth does not offer greater advantages over dino.. plain and simple.!! Although I agree where synth can be a waste of money in some application/engines.
Sorry some of us have to work and add a 90 minute one way commute and not going to answer right away.
Agree with your last sentence though!
Originally Posted By: CATERHAM
There is only one reason to even consider not using synthetic oil and that is cost.
And if one thinks about it carefully, the perceived up front savings you might realize on the initial purchase on an inferior mineral lube may not pay off in the long run.
What is the long run? 200,000 miles? 300,000 miles? When will the engines fail (or have problems) using the inferior lube? Is today's conventional worst than yesterday's conventional?
Just want to know when I need to be worried about my engines stopping and leaving me on the side of the road. (For the record never had one yet in over many decades of driving MANY miles)
Originally Posted By: gathermewool
I meant no disrespect toward Bill; I would have stated the same to any one who seemed to be in a position of authority, such as those here who have very high post counts. The point I in-eloquently tried to get across is that to be absolute on anything leaves room for error. If some one posts that you should absolutely do something or not, or that something is absolutely true or not, then you should have questions.
Dude no problem!
Originally Posted By: Mr_Incredible
I remember back in '93 I changed the Harley from conventional 50w to M1 somethingW-50. It dropped the oil temp about 10 degrees. I can't say it did anything else, but it did do that.
Apples and Oranges unless your harley is water cooled.
Guys if you want to run syn go for it! But PLEASE don't say that others can not get value and long life using conventional because that is NOT TRUE. Millions do and that is just what I'm trying to get across.
Is there some improvement with syn? Sure but the average person in the average area is not going to get the benefits IMO. We see it here all the time. And when you ask them why are they running x brand of syn y miles they said it just needed to be changed. Ah no it did not.
We have tons of people who read this forum. I've always wanted the facts to come across and it just kills me to read the words inferior when that is not the fact.
Bill no offence but I wouldn't have a problem if you said quality, name brand, GP II based mineral oils are good enough in most non extreme applications and can deliver long engine life.
But you go beyond that and make absolute statements that simply are not true.
Mineral oils use base stocks that are technically inferior to oils derived from synthetic base stocks. That means the fluids used have much lower natural viscosity indexes and leave more residue when burned. This is not subject to opinion this is FACT.
Whether the use of superior synthetic base oils results in a significantly better final finished oil one can argue depending on the skill of the formulator and the application in which the oil will be used.
Tell you guys what. I run PU 5-30 in my Speed, I change it every 3K. You pay for shipping and I will send the used stuff to you. How's that ?
Synthetic oil has high flash point and low ash content. The engine will look clean and less sludge. If we just look it as lube, dino no inferior than synthetic. With proper OCI, engine with class II or II+ dino do as well as class III 'syn" dino (80-90% labeled as syn on the market. If your car has turbo charge or design fault, that is another story.
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Originally Posted By: PZR2874
Tell you guys what. I run PU 5-30 in my Speed, I change it every 3K. You pay for shipping and I will send the used stuff to you. How's that ?
You don't have to ship to me. Just put it in a container and labeled it and put it at your local auto part recycle center. I am sure it will gone within seconds.
Tell you guys what. I run PU 5-30 in my Speed, I change it every 3K. You pay for shipping and I will send the used stuff to you. How's that ?
You don't have to ship to me. Just put it in a container and labeled it and put it at your local auto part recycle center. I am sure it will gone within seconds.
Last edited:
Originally Posted By: PZR2874
Tell you guys what. I run PU 5-30 in my Speed, I change it every 3K. You pay for shipping and I will send the used stuff to you. How's that ?
Many years ago I gave PYB or Mobil 1 with 3K miles on it to my neighbor to use in his oil burner, leaky Chevy van. He'd go through a qt in 200 miles or less. I'd give it to him by the gallon. LOL
Tell you guys what. I run PU 5-30 in my Speed, I change it every 3K. You pay for shipping and I will send the used stuff to you. How's that ?
Many years ago I gave PYB or Mobil 1 with 3K miles on it to my neighbor to use in his oil burner, leaky Chevy van. He'd go through a qt in 200 miles or less. I'd give it to him by the gallon. LOL
Again you're over looking the inherently higher VI of syn' oils.
And since we're talking about multigrade oils, this means a more shear stable product.
And since we're talking about multigrade oils, this means a more shear stable product.
Originally Posted By: demarpaint
Originally Posted By: PZR2874
Tell you guys what. I run PU 5-30 in my Speed, I change it every 3K. You pay for shipping and I will send the used stuff to you. How's that ?
Many years ago I gave PYB or Mobil 1 with 3K miles on it to my neighbor to use in his oil burner, leaky Chevy van. He'd go through a qt in 200 miles or less. I'd give it to him by the gallon. LOL
I do the same thing, but use it in my lawnmowers... lol
All I'm saying is that most of you guys that say Syn can go 8-10K between changes is absurd (I do look at UOA's). Maybe i'm not getting the whole picture and since I live in the friggin desert and that I drive my car hard I have no choice.
Simply saying that changing your oil every 3K is a waste of money is a bit far fetched.
Originally Posted By: PZR2874
Tell you guys what. I run PU 5-30 in my Speed, I change it every 3K. You pay for shipping and I will send the used stuff to you. How's that ?
Many years ago I gave PYB or Mobil 1 with 3K miles on it to my neighbor to use in his oil burner, leaky Chevy van. He'd go through a qt in 200 miles or less. I'd give it to him by the gallon. LOL
I do the same thing, but use it in my lawnmowers... lol
All I'm saying is that most of you guys that say Syn can go 8-10K between changes is absurd (I do look at UOA's). Maybe i'm not getting the whole picture and since I live in the friggin desert and that I drive my car hard I have no choice.
Simply saying that changing your oil every 3K is a waste of money is a bit far fetched.
Originally Posted By: CATERHAM
Again you're over looking the inherently higher VI of syn' oils.
And since we're talking about multigrade oils, this means a more shear stable product.
That's why dino has 5K OCI. Syn oil is more shear stable but not shear free. If your vehicle shear prone, syn oil is recommended. Oil is still cheaper compare to vehicle replacement cost.
Again you're over looking the inherently higher VI of syn' oils.
And since we're talking about multigrade oils, this means a more shear stable product.
That's why dino has 5K OCI. Syn oil is more shear stable but not shear free. If your vehicle shear prone, syn oil is recommended. Oil is still cheaper compare to vehicle replacement cost.
Originally Posted By: Maxima97
molecular size diversity (to get into gaps of bearing), seal compatibility.
We are not there yet: molecular size gaps in bearings? What you call molecular size (you could also get into molecular 'shape') diversity is precisely poor isotropy compared to the isomerised molecules of syn stock. Even Group III is isomerised, and that alone is making substantial difference in stability of the stock. Of course, great conventional oils do exist as do poor syn oils. Add pack is as important - no question about that. science requires more effort than reading Internet boards..
molecular size diversity (to get into gaps of bearing), seal compatibility.
We are not there yet: molecular size gaps in bearings? What you call molecular size (you could also get into molecular 'shape') diversity is precisely poor isotropy compared to the isomerised molecules of syn stock. Even Group III is isomerised, and that alone is making substantial difference in stability of the stock. Of course, great conventional oils do exist as do poor syn oils. Add pack is as important - no question about that. science requires more effort than reading Internet boards..
Originally Posted By: 2K2AcuraTL
Originally Posted By: gfh77665
Originally Posted By: Bill in Utah
Longer OCI? Wrong.
Cleaner engine? Wrong.
Bill
So, just asking, you are saying Mobil 5000 is perfectly equivalent to Mobil 1 EP, which Mobil says: " delivers guaranteed protection of critical engine parts for 15,000 miles.".
And, Pennzoil YB is perfectly equivalent to Pennzoil Ultra, which SOPUS says is THE ultimate cleaner?
I was thinking of the same question/angle....
Hmmm.. no one has rebutted to this one yet....
I dont subscribe to the point of view that a synth does not offer greater advantages over dino.. plain and simple.!! Although I agree where synth can be a waste of money in some application/engines.
Agreed. I haven't read a clear rebuttal either. There were comments about "marketing" and "clean valve covers" and such, but both are side issues that do not answer the question:
"Are dinos perfectly equivalent to synthetics?" As it pertains to Longer OCI? and Cleaner engines?
Originally Posted By: gfh77665
Originally Posted By: Bill in Utah
Longer OCI? Wrong.
Cleaner engine? Wrong.
Bill
So, just asking, you are saying Mobil 5000 is perfectly equivalent to Mobil 1 EP, which Mobil says: " delivers guaranteed protection of critical engine parts for 15,000 miles.".
And, Pennzoil YB is perfectly equivalent to Pennzoil Ultra, which SOPUS says is THE ultimate cleaner?
I was thinking of the same question/angle....
Hmmm.. no one has rebutted to this one yet....
I dont subscribe to the point of view that a synth does not offer greater advantages over dino.. plain and simple.!! Although I agree where synth can be a waste of money in some application/engines.
Agreed. I haven't read a clear rebuttal either. There were comments about "marketing" and "clean valve covers" and such, but both are side issues that do not answer the question:
"Are dinos perfectly equivalent to synthetics?" As it pertains to Longer OCI? and Cleaner engines?
Originally Posted By: PZR2874
Originally Posted By: demarpaint
Originally Posted By: PZR2874
Tell you guys what. I run PU 5-30 in my Speed, I change it every 3K. You pay for shipping and I will send the used stuff to you. How's that ?
Many years ago I gave PYB or Mobil 1 with 3K miles on it to my neighbor to use in his oil burner, leaky Chevy van. He'd go through a qt in 200 miles or less. I'd give it to him by the gallon. LOL
I do the same thing, but use it in my lawnmowers... lol
All I'm saying is that most of you guys that say Syn can go 8-10K between changes is absurd (I do look at UOA's). Maybe i'm not getting the whole picture and since I live in the friggin desert and that I drive my car hard I have no choice.
Simply saying that changing your oil every 3K is a waste of money is a bit far fetched.
Well, for starters, you drive a Mazdaspeed3 like I do. This DI, turbo putting out 116.5hp/L is notoriously hard on oil. I've got a little over 3000 miles on my current fill of PP and I'm anxious to get it out, as it is jet black, thin and smelling of gasoline. This car needs 3-4,000 mi OCIs regardless of the oil used. OTOH, your Forester and my Mopar V-6's can extend a ways. Not all engines are the same on oil.
Originally Posted By: demarpaint
Originally Posted By: PZR2874
Tell you guys what. I run PU 5-30 in my Speed, I change it every 3K. You pay for shipping and I will send the used stuff to you. How's that ?
Many years ago I gave PYB or Mobil 1 with 3K miles on it to my neighbor to use in his oil burner, leaky Chevy van. He'd go through a qt in 200 miles or less. I'd give it to him by the gallon. LOL
I do the same thing, but use it in my lawnmowers... lol
All I'm saying is that most of you guys that say Syn can go 8-10K between changes is absurd (I do look at UOA's). Maybe i'm not getting the whole picture and since I live in the friggin desert and that I drive my car hard I have no choice.
Simply saying that changing your oil every 3K is a waste of money is a bit far fetched.
Well, for starters, you drive a Mazdaspeed3 like I do. This DI, turbo putting out 116.5hp/L is notoriously hard on oil. I've got a little over 3000 miles on my current fill of PP and I'm anxious to get it out, as it is jet black, thin and smelling of gasoline. This car needs 3-4,000 mi OCIs regardless of the oil used. OTOH, your Forester and my Mopar V-6's can extend a ways. Not all engines are the same on oil.
Originally Posted By: spock1
Would your old LTD start unplugged at -48C on dino?
Most new cars barely cranck at that temperature.
Of course not. It was on propane. Propane won't vaporize at -48 C, let alone start if not plugged in at -48. Propane cars of the era (mine included) would need to be plugged in at -20 C and colder.
Aside from that, there was a trick to getting propane cars going in colder than -40 C, not plugged in, with even 10w-30 dino in the sump. Dump a boiling kettle on the mixer, and away you go.
The biggest weakness at -40 C and colder isn't just the oil. It's the cranking ability of the battery at that temperature. My old F-150 has a permanently mounted charger, rather than a battery blanket. It turns over in -40 C just like it turns over in the summer.
Originally Posted By: gfh77665
Agreed. I haven't read a clear rebuttal either. There were comments about "marketing" and "clean valve covers" and such, but both are side issues that do not answer the question:
"Are dinos perfectly equivalent to synthetics?" As it pertains to Longer OCI? and Cleaner engines?
I offered a rebuttal already. Very few synthetics are actually marketed as long drain oils, much less with a warranty to back that up. Obvious exceptions are M1 EP and Amsoil. If I ask SOPUS if I can go longer than my factory OCI under warranty under PP or PU and be covered by their warranty, they'll tell me no - the same that they tell people using PYB.
As for "perfect" equivalence, you're looking for something that isn't possible. To start with, not all synthetics are equal to each other, nor are all conventionals. Heck, there isn't even equivalence within one product line. PU Euro meets a lot of different specs that regular PU doesn't. M1 0w-40 has a completely different target than M1 5-30, along with different basestocks and specifications.
Let's also not forget that there are synthetics out there that lack the latest API/ILSAC specifications, not to mention lacking actual manufacturer or ACEA approvals. RP 0w-40 was an acceptable (and excellent performing) lube for my old Audi. It met all specs required, and then some. For my G, the older RP 5w-30 SL rated would "work," but wouldn't be warranty approved. While RP claims it would stand behind it's product, even taking that at face value, it's not the "required" product. That's not to say that the latest API specs are the be all and end all of lubrication. There are plenty of highly regarded boutique synthetics out there that don't have the approvals. However, we do know that there are some pretty shady, poor products out there that fall within the "synthetic" category.
If I were to extend my OCIs, I have no doubt that M1 EP would be more up to the task than Mobil 1000 conventional. But, for 3750 mile factory mandated OCIs with no synthetic requirement, what advantage would M1 EP provide me? Heck, what advantage would regular M1 provide me over 3750 mile OCIs?
Would your old LTD start unplugged at -48C on dino?
Most new cars barely cranck at that temperature.
Of course not. It was on propane. Propane won't vaporize at -48 C, let alone start if not plugged in at -48. Propane cars of the era (mine included) would need to be plugged in at -20 C and colder.
Aside from that, there was a trick to getting propane cars going in colder than -40 C, not plugged in, with even 10w-30 dino in the sump. Dump a boiling kettle on the mixer, and away you go.
The biggest weakness at -40 C and colder isn't just the oil. It's the cranking ability of the battery at that temperature. My old F-150 has a permanently mounted charger, rather than a battery blanket. It turns over in -40 C just like it turns over in the summer.
Originally Posted By: gfh77665
Agreed. I haven't read a clear rebuttal either. There were comments about "marketing" and "clean valve covers" and such, but both are side issues that do not answer the question:
"Are dinos perfectly equivalent to synthetics?" As it pertains to Longer OCI? and Cleaner engines?
I offered a rebuttal already. Very few synthetics are actually marketed as long drain oils, much less with a warranty to back that up. Obvious exceptions are M1 EP and Amsoil. If I ask SOPUS if I can go longer than my factory OCI under warranty under PP or PU and be covered by their warranty, they'll tell me no - the same that they tell people using PYB.
As for "perfect" equivalence, you're looking for something that isn't possible. To start with, not all synthetics are equal to each other, nor are all conventionals. Heck, there isn't even equivalence within one product line. PU Euro meets a lot of different specs that regular PU doesn't. M1 0w-40 has a completely different target than M1 5-30, along with different basestocks and specifications.
Let's also not forget that there are synthetics out there that lack the latest API/ILSAC specifications, not to mention lacking actual manufacturer or ACEA approvals. RP 0w-40 was an acceptable (and excellent performing) lube for my old Audi. It met all specs required, and then some. For my G, the older RP 5w-30 SL rated would "work," but wouldn't be warranty approved. While RP claims it would stand behind it's product, even taking that at face value, it's not the "required" product. That's not to say that the latest API specs are the be all and end all of lubrication. There are plenty of highly regarded boutique synthetics out there that don't have the approvals. However, we do know that there are some pretty shady, poor products out there that fall within the "synthetic" category.
If I were to extend my OCIs, I have no doubt that M1 EP would be more up to the task than Mobil 1000 conventional. But, for 3750 mile factory mandated OCIs with no synthetic requirement, what advantage would M1 EP provide me? Heck, what advantage would regular M1 provide me over 3750 mile OCIs?
Originally Posted By: Indydriver
Well, for starters, you drive a Mazdaspeed3 like I do. This DI, turbo putting out 116.5hp/L is notoriously hard on oil.
Not to derail, but you bring up a very good point. How hard is it on oil, aside from the fuel dilution issue? That brings me to my next point. Is a synthetic the "best" answer for fuel dilution? Or, is more frequent changes on conventional more appropriate? Putting aside shear from dilution, is a higher TBN helpful in this case?
When my old F-150 had the feedback carb on it, it would dilute the oil so bad I could have probably tossed the used oil into the gas tank at OC time.
I wouldn't have dreamed of using synthetic for such short OCIs.
Well, for starters, you drive a Mazdaspeed3 like I do. This DI, turbo putting out 116.5hp/L is notoriously hard on oil.
Not to derail, but you bring up a very good point. How hard is it on oil, aside from the fuel dilution issue? That brings me to my next point. Is a synthetic the "best" answer for fuel dilution? Or, is more frequent changes on conventional more appropriate? Putting aside shear from dilution, is a higher TBN helpful in this case?
When my old F-150 had the feedback carb on it, it would dilute the oil so bad I could have probably tossed the used oil into the gas tank at OC time.
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