Synthetic oil snafus

[A_Harman]

Originally Posted By: Tom NJ

AV-1 was a poor formulation. It was based solely on PAOs with no polar base oils, and had insufficient dispersants to compensate for the non-polar PAO. As a result it was incapable of handling the "lead sludge" that is generated in certain engines using leaded fuel. The product was withdrawn and substantial compensation was paid for damaged engines.

Similar rashes of failures have occured in petroleum based oils as well. It is not a "synthetic" failure as much as a misapplication of the wrong synthetic in the wrong formulation for the wrong application.

That said, I agree that the use of "synthetic" base oils does not guarantee a superior lubricant, and in some applications may be inferior.

Tom NJ


I'm sure glad I kept reading the thread until I got to this note. I was beginning to think I was wasting my time.

 

[tc1446]

Spook, you got em going on this one. If I wanted to crawl under my 3 vehicles every 5K or less I'd use conventional too. But I don't. I use syn, a good filter, and run them 10k. Works for me; your miles may vary...........

 

[simple_gifts]

Originally Posted By: tc1446
Spook, you got em going on this one. If I wanted to crawl under my 3 vehicles every 5K or less I'd use conventional too. But I don't. I use syn, a good filter, and run them 10k. Works for me; your miles may vary...........


+1; my B2300 is @ 5K on the oil now; February OC? I think not. Good to go till April-May.

 

[spock1]

Originally Posted By: Tom NJ
Originally Posted By: spock1
We probably all agree that for most users,synthetic motor oil is the way to go.
But,synthetic oils are not the ideal oils for some applications.
A perfect example of misapplication would be the Mobil AV-1 incident in the early nineties.
This oil was used in airplane piston engines with less than stellar results-need I say more?
Does anybody remember that incident and the cause of the problem?
So synthetic motor oil is not the best choice in some applications in piston engines.


AV-1 was a poor formulation. It was based solely on PAOs with no polar base oils, and had insufficient dispersants to compensate for the non-polar PAO. As a result it was incapable of handling the "lead sludge" that is generated in certain engines using leaded fuel. The product was withdrawn and substantial compensation was paid for damaged engines.

Similar rashes of failures have occured in petroleum based oils as well. It is not a "synthetic" failure as much as a misapplication of the wrong synthetic in the wrong formulation for the wrong application.

That said, I agree that the use of "synthetic" base oils does not guarantee a superior lubricant, and in some applications may be inferior.

Tom NJ


Thanks for you scholarly explanation.

 

[ahoier]

Aren't there some rotary engines that specifically say not to use synthetic oil? I recall reading something of this sort years ago...not sure if this is still the case or not though....

 

[joaks]

For my opinion:

Synthetic are usually better but whether it is worth the cost will depend. I'm going to buy some QSUD this weekend for the rebate. Certainly worth the cost there.

It may not always be BETTER but rarely is worse. Actually, when IS it worse? Rotary engine as mentioned, but when else? (No flame, I'm really asking).

Also, my manual was written in the mid-nineties (maybe actually early nineties) oil has changed since then so I need to keep that in mind.

 

[Maxima97]

Synthetic oil is the way to go if you live in extream cold weather or car design fault with 300F hot spot. Actually, 80-90% of the so called 'synthetic oils" are hyper processed group 3 dino oil. All the dino oil on the market are at least group 2 "synthetic" oil. You have to look at the end result of motor oil rather then the label.

 

[aquariuscsm]

I agree with Maxima97 on this one. Unless you`re getting a pao or ester,grp III`s are just overpriced dinos. So what if they remove a few impurities or whatever they do,imo it`s not worth twice the price. Like I said in another thread,gro III`s are just oil company cash cows.

 

[Astro14]

I've been able to stock up (call me a hoarder...) on M1 TDT and Castrol EDGE at $0.98/QT...and at that price (less than a dollar), I will use all that up long before I start looking at cost again...

One point missing from the cost discussion on dino vs. synthetic is the value of my time in NOT doing an oil change because I extended the interval. My cars are all driven in lots of city traffic...2 are force fed...they get synthetic so that I am not under a car every other week as I would be with a reduced OCI for those operating conditions.

If I don't have a reason for synthetic, I don't use it...my most valuable car gets dino...

 

[Maxima97]

Originally Posted By: Astro14
I've been able to stock up (call me a hoarder...) on M1 TDT and Castrol EDGE at $0.98/QT...and at that price (less than a dollar), I will use all that up long before I start looking at cost again...

One point missing from the cost discussion on dino vs. synthetic is the value of my time in NOT doing an oil change because I extended the interval. My cars are all driven in lots of city traffic...2 are force fed...they get synthetic so that I am not under a car every other week as I would be with a reduced OCI for those operating conditions.

If I don't have a reason for synthetic, I don't use it...my most valuable car gets dino...

Your most value car don't go with any modern oil. The SN spec oil only go back to SL or so I believe because of lack of Zn, P. Your old car need Zn and P and probably don't need a state emission test anymore. The VR1 20W50 street version synthetic would be a better choice. They are FAR (better than a dollar) a few month ago.

 

[ammolab]

So I think I get it... Synthetic for the S54 BMW (as required by the mfg) and PYB for the Honda CR-V.

So then for Valentines dinner it must be Lobster for the Trophy Wife.... but only Beans and Baloney for her Truck Stop Waitress Sister?

 

[CATERHAM]

Originally Posted By: joaks

It may not always be BETTER but rarely is worse. Actually, when IS it worse? Rotary engine as mentioned, but when else? (No flame, I'm really asking).

Again not true. The best oil for a stressed Rotary application is fully synthetic. Check out the following USA made product:
http://www.idemitsu-usa.com/page_211.htm

 

[Zaedock]

Originally Posted By: ammolab
So then for Valentines dinner it must be Lobster for the Trophy Wife.... but only Beans and Baloney for her Truck Stop Waitress Sister?


Like comparing synthetic to conventional, if you are able to maintain the sister with beans and baloney, then to her it performs as well as lobster.

 

[spock1]

Originally Posted By: Zaedock
Originally Posted By: ammolab
So then for Valentines dinner it must be Lobster for the Trophy Wife.... but only Beans and Baloney for her Truck Stop Waitress Sister?


Like comparing synthetic to conventional, if you are able to maintain the sister with beans and baloney, then to her it performs as well as lobster.

You guys are hilarious.

 

[CATERHAM]

Originally Posted By: ammolab
So I think I get it... Synthetic for the S54 BMW (as required by the mfg) and PYB for the Honda CR-V.

I wouldn't argue against using a name brand aftermarket 5W-20 (150 VI) dino in an hot climate if it can be had for significantly less than the OEM 0W-20, but when you can use a 0W-20 (216 VI) OEM synthetic for the same price, which is the case in my country, it clearly makes no sense.

 

[bk111]

I read somewhere Mazda states NOT to use synthetic oil in the rotary engines of the RX8

 

[Astro14]

You're right Maxima97...in fact, the Packard specs a "medium cylinder oil" for moderate temperatures...and a "light cylinder oil" in the winter.

Best protection, including the things you mention, comes from an HDEO...which doesn't get a lot of miles/year and gets diluted from running with the choke on, so dino HDEO makes the most sense for her...but I'll look at the Vavoline...ZDDP is not as important as you might think, it's a roller cam and the bearings are babbit metal - able to take quite a bit of abuse, but not high temperatures...

 

[il_signore97]

Originally Posted By: Bill in Utah
That would be correct.

In most engines syn oil is not magic. It does not fix issues and should NOT be run not a mile longer than conventional oils in some situations.

The people (manufactures) who build engines also state that. Severe service limits should be followed no matter what oil you use. They have done a ton more testing than we ever will. If they have done testing and state it then please let us know who and where. Every manual that I've read *IF* it states anything about syn states to STILL change it per the manual (ie same as conventional. This incls Subaru, Ford, GM and Toyota that I've read lately)

Now oil companies selling their oil say something else. And its up to each of us to decide what to do. That is fine and some are successful. Some are not.

I've said here for almost 10 years that IF your engine NEEDS syn then run it. I've also said anything force fed I'd prob run it. Also there are engines these days that require it but don't need it. (though I'd still run it while in warranty) It does allow them to get more $$ when you go into the stealership (and most of them still put a 3-5k mile or 3-6mo sticker in the windshield for the next $ervice)

Take VW for example. What did they do to their engines from 1986 when I ran my Jetta to 394,000 miles on API SE to API SM conventional oils (and well below zero on 10w-30 till 1996 when 5w-30 came out) to now requiring 5.xx (whatever they are up to) in their current Jettas?

Take care, bill



Bill,

Respectfully, you are entitled to your views and opinions. But please state them as such.

I have been enjoying the BENEFITS of synthetic oils for many many years. Specifically, I do not change my oil as per the manufacturer's recommendations. I am able to drive right past them, doubling, often tripling the recommened severe service OCI for my vehicles. This is done in all kinds of weather, with all kinds of driving.

Is this conclusive evidence that sythetic oil can be used universally for 3 times the recommended OCI? No, not at all. Does it show that this CAN be done if implemented correctly? Absolutely.

I have never had an engine or lubrication-related problem with any vehicle that I have owned or maintained. I don't care about saving 2 cents worth of oil just to change my oil 3 times more often than I do. I don't concern myself as to whether synthetic oil is better or not than conventional. I will never ever know if it produces a longer lasting engine or not... Nor will I ever care.

...just for the record: Your 1986 Jetta did not have any fancy particulate filters to protect, nor did it have any other advanced emission-related components. It did not call for an ACEA A3 rated oil that was meant to last up to 20,000 km under severe service OCI's. That's why they require 504/507/etc oil now. Not because the engine "NEEDS" it.

 

[Astro14]

Originally Posted By: ammolab
So I think I get it... Synthetic for the S54 BMW (as required by the mfg) and PYB for the Honda CR-V.

So then for Valentines dinner it must be Lobster for the Trophy Wife.... but only Beans and Baloney for her Truck Stop Waitress Sister?


Lobster was once considered so awful that only prisoners and destitute people ate it...and in fact, some New England states had a law limiting the number of times per week that you could serve lobster to inmates in state institutions.

So, as lobster has gone from cheap awful protein to delicacy...As far as the truck stop sister...if it were 100 years ago, she would be getting the better dinner...

That said, even now, if the truck stop sister were allergic to shellfish - you would be doing just as well by her as her sister ..and so it is with cars: give them what they need, be it dino or synthetic...but spending more doesn't get you more...I had over 200K on my 1977 Oldsmobile V-8, run completely on SC, or SD, (I don't remember) dino 10W40...

 

[OVERKILL]

"Better" depends greatly on the application and operating conditions as others have mentioned. There are certain spec's (HTO-06 for example) that require a synthetic oil to be met.

Now if you have an application that is easy on oil, and have no desire to perform extend drains, then the "benefits" of synthetic may be a complete waste. So really, it holds no advantage in that scenario and is just plain overkill.