Suggestions for home protection firearm

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Originally Posted By: ridgerunner
Originally Posted By: calvin1
IMHO, with children the worst thing you can do is keep it a secret you have guns in the house. When you get something to shoot take them along to the range once, at least the six year old anyway. Proper exposure will help prevent the next "Kids killed by gun found in closet" story from being you and yours.


Thank you! I'm glad someone said it. I agree 100%. They are going to be curious about a guns, fire, knives, etc. Teach them young the correct and safe way. If U don't they will "experiment" on their own...not good. I also agree on the 20 gauge pump or semi using small birdshot like 6,7 1/2, or 8 shot or smaller. Anything larger will over penetrate walls at distance. Keep in mind not ALL that shot will hit your intended target, some will miss and go elsewhere. U hit a person with birshot at close range game over for them, no need for buckshot here. I would never recommend a pistol for someone who has never owned guns before, and with no training and without constant practice...just plain stupid for obvious reasons.


The birdshot myth is false. I am sorry to tell ya that birdshot will not take a man down. **** Cheney shot an elderly man in the face and chest with it and he lived. My LEO friend in California has seen a man take two blasts with birdshot to the chest and he WALKED to the ambulance. It shreds meat but doesn't have the kinetic energy to penetrate enough to reach vital organs. Ballistic gelatin tests confirm this over and over. Small buckshot is needed. If birdshot was effective, cops would use it and ammo companies would market it as self defense ammo.

I would not even use BB sized shot and have confidence in it. I have shot Coyotes up close with number 4 birdshot magnum loads and not dropped them.
 
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Originally Posted By: Robenstein
Originally Posted By: ridgerunner
Originally Posted By: calvin1
IMHO, with children the worst thing you can do is keep it a secret you have guns in the house. When you get something to shoot take them along to the range once, at least the six year old anyway. Proper exposure will help prevent the next "Kids killed by gun found in closet" story from being you and yours.


Thank you! I'm glad someone said it. I agree 100%. They are going to be curious about a guns, fire, knives, etc. Teach them young the correct and safe way. If U don't they will "experiment" on their own...not good. I also agree on the 20 gauge pump or semi using small birdshot like 6,7 1/2, or 8 shot or smaller. Anything larger will over penetrate walls at distance. Keep in mind not ALL that shot will hit your intended target, some will miss and go elsewhere. U hit a person with birshot at close range game over for them, no need for buckshot here. I would never recommend a pistol for someone who has never owned guns before, and with no training and without constant practice...just plain stupid for obvious reasons.


The birdshot myth is false. I am sorry to tell ya that birdshot will not take a man down. **** Cheney shot an elderly man in the face and chest with it and he lived. My LEO friend in California has seen a man take two blasts with birdshot to the chest and he WALKED to the ambulance. It shreds meat but doesn't have the kinetic energy to penetrate enough to reach vital organs. Ballistic gelatin tests confirm this over and over. Small buckshot is needed. If birdshot was effective, cops would use it and ammo companies would market it as self defense ammo.

I would not even use BB sized shot and have confidence in it. I have shot Coyotes up close with number 4 birdshot magnum loads and not dropped them.


I agree completely. The FBI requires a minimum of 12 inches of Penetration onto ballistics gelatin to meet standards that are considered a must for Home defense. http://www.shotgunworld.com/bbs/viewtopic.php?f=7&t=109958 (i recomend joining that website and taking a browse threw the Tac,HD section.
LOTS of threads about the bird shot debate, kinda like a 3k OCI debate here lol.

as you will find #4 buckshot is the smallest size shot that will meet that FBI specification.
Basic thought is, to have a round that will consistently stop a bad guy your going to have alot of penetration into dry wall. You know whats great at stopping over penetration into walls? The Bad guys chest! This is why its popular to use 00buckshot with a flite control wad to create tighter groups. you need all of your shot to hit the bad guy, your responsible for everything that comes out of your gun. using 00 buckshot with a tight group is a great HD round because It wont over penetrate into neighbors houses if going into a bad guy first, it has much more stopping power then a single projectile with the same penetrating characteristics, and has a small enough group that shot is not going everywhere and missing the intended target and going into walls.

Im just a newb here, if you want real heavily detailed info on this subject join shotgunworld.com and go to the Home defese section.
 
Small birdshot is *Not* suitable for defensive use, not even at extremely close range! I once read that this was tried and abandoned in prisons long ago. I recommended low brass, whatever-is-on-sale birdshot shells for practice only- though they should work well for quail, dove, & other small game. Good on clay pigeons too!

My #1 house gun- a Maverick Mariner 12 ga pump with full length magazine & 20" cyl bore barrel- stays loaded with 00 buckshot.
 
Never tried birdshot on a guys chest before but shot clean through 3/4" OSB at 5yds. Just seems like it would do a number on a person's chest but I could be wrong. I bet Cheney's buddy was a lot further than that or he'd be dead. I've also heart shot deer with a 180 grain 30-06 and they ran over 100 yds before dropping. Personally I do use buckshot in my 12 guage for home defence. My closest neighbor is 1/2 mile away so I don't care much about overpenetration hurting anyone but the intended target. If I lived in a crowded subdivision I might change the load some.
 
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Originally Posted By: MrRPM


I agree completely. The FBI requires a minimum of 12 inches of Penetration onto ballistics gelatin to meet standards that are considered a must for Home defense....


Well that's good to know if I ever get attacked by ballistics gelatin.

I don't know if my 9mm hydra-shoks will penetrate 12 inches of ballistics gelatin but it's going to mess up the inside of it real bad.

Tests in a controlled environment using an analogue are okay but you can't account for all the variables in a break-in.

When they caught the parties responsible for the break-ins in my neighborhood, they were juveniles. Made me reconsider my ammo choice. Not sure how I'd feel about myself if I shot a 12 year old. Hope I never find out. Maybe just cycling a pump action shotgun would have enough psychological impact to halt the intruder?
 
As I was told in my CCW course, if you pull a gun you best be absolutely ready to use it. A 12 year old can pull a weapon on you just as a grownup can.

Ballistics gelatin is a PERFECT analogue for soft tissue and organs, and you have to remember that you have bone and skin to contend with as well. Birdshot simply does not have the mass to effectively put down a human. It is plain and simple science, and the FBI in the wake of the tragic 1986 shootout that left agents dead, spent a ton of effort and time evaluating ammo requirements. This is when they even decided the 9mm with the JHP ammo of the time was insufficient and they went to the 10mm and later 40 S&W.
 
If you want to narrow down the responses,just ignore any of them that claim that you either don't have to aim a shotgun,or you just have to get close.

In a typical home defense scenario,the shots will be close. My house is 2500SF and I don't have an shot that would be more than about 15'. At that range,there is virtually no chance for the shot to spread,even with a cylinder bore. If you don't aim,you don't hit.

There is no shooting from the hip and taking down 2-3 bad guys with a wall of lead.

A double action revolver is probably the easiest for a beginner to use. Just pull the trigger. If it doesn't go bang,just pull the trigger again. The downside to a revolver is the rather large flash you'll get from the cylinder gap. If you fire something like a .357 in the dark,you'll only be able to see for the first shot. After that you'll be firing blind.

A semi-auto pistol takes much more training than a revolver to become familiar with. Unlike a revolver,if a semi-auto doesn't go bang,you need to figure out why. You may have a failure to feed,a failure to eject,etc. Then you're stuck in the dark trying to figure out why the gun isn't firing.

Finally,you need to be ready to kill someone. You don't shoot at them to scare them away,or to wound them. If I'm shooting at you,I'm trying to kill you.
 
Originally Posted By: Robenstein
As I was told in my CCW course, if you pull a gun you best be absolutely ready to use it. A 12 year old can pull a weapon on you just as a grownup can.
...


Yep. A 12 year old can. No question about that.

But how do you feel about making the decision you had to make after you pull the trigger? Grown-ups are one thing. No compunction. I'm not going to feel a bit bad about protecting my home and family from an adult intruder.

But when you're a daddy, that makes you think about what "would have happened" if you shoot a child. You wonder where that child's parents went wrong and how you can teach your own child better. Make it stick.

You hope that you never have to use your firearm but are prepared to do so.
 
All this talk about Different types of Intruders reminds me to bring up that a flash light system is a very good idea to have with or on your HD weapon. you need to see and identify your intruder before firing. Depending on your house, having a light might be a must. Firing on that 12 year old might be necessarily but not if its your sons neighbor friend coming over in the middle of the night for an emergency or something.

Some houses are set up with light throughout the house or you might feel you can grab a light switch but its one of those things where you would rather have it and not need it then need it and not have it. also you have the advantage of being on home terf. staying stealthy and using fast bursts of light might be a better way to find the intruder before the intruder finds you by breaking your cover by lighting up the whole area.
 
Originally Posted By: MrRPM
All this talk about Different types of Intruders reminds me to bring up that a flash light system is a very good idea to have with or on your HD weapon. you need to see and identify your intruder before firing. Depending on your house, having a light might be a must. Firing on that 12 year old might be necessarily but not if its your sons neighbor friend coming over in the middle of the night for an emergency or something.

Some houses are set up with light throughout the house or you might feel you can grab a light switch but its one of those things where you would rather have it and not need it then need it and not have it. also you have the advantage of being on home terf. staying stealthy and using fast bursts of light might be a better way to find the intruder before the intruder finds you by breaking your cover by lighting up the whole area.


You make excellent points. Light is important in identifying threats.

Along those same lines, what about your own sight picture? A weapon mounted light does nothing to help you, the operator, obtain a clear sight picture in the dark. That makes night sights or a laser pretty important.

I used to think lasers were gimmicky; too Hollywood. However, when you think that most home encounters are at 15' or less, a laser doesn't seem like a bad option. Getting on target and firing a round from 15' can be done pretty quickly... when you have ample light. I've never tried it in the dark. With a laser, I think you'd have a pretty good oppertunity hitting a target with a limited sight picture with the extra assurance from the little red dot.
 
I'd say think about whether or not you are interested in anything beyond HD. Do you think you and your family will enjoy target shooting at the local range? Firearms can easily become a very involved and satisfying hobby. I've had a shotgun in the house for years and a couple of years ago, my son got me interested in pistols. I now own four Glocks and use them for HD, concealed carry and lots of fun at the range.

A Glock is a great way to get started. It is in your price range. It is simple to operate and field strip to clean. They are known for their reliability and capacity. I just jumped in and bought one. Then two, then three and now four. It's a fun hobby. I am completely self-taught and very safe. Buy a small safe to store your gun. I mounted mine on the bedroom closet shelf. Spend some time on the leading Glock forum. Join the range. Buy a holster, cleaning kit, FMJ and JHP ammos. Start by reading the owners manual of your weapon. A training class is OK for absolute noobs but you will quickly be beyond that. As long as you keep safety as Priority 1 (for both yourself and the kids), you'll do fine.
 
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The Kel Tec Sub 2000 might also work well. Takes Glock mags. One in 9mm might just do the trick. From my experience they are reliable as long as you dont use the cheap aluminum cased Blazer ammo, which you would certainly not for self defense.

Another idea would be a 9mm AR.
 
Originally Posted By: MrHorspwer
You make excellent points. Light is important in identifying threats.

Along those same lines, what about your own sight picture? A weapon mounted light does nothing to help you, the operator, obtain a clear sight picture in the dark. That makes night sights or a laser pretty important.

I used to think lasers were gimmicky; too Hollywood. However, when you think that most home encounters are at 15' or less, a laser doesn't seem like a bad option. Getting on target and firing a round from 15' can be done pretty quickly... when you have ample light. I've never tried it in the dark. With a laser, I think you'd have a pretty good oppertunity hitting a target with a limited sight picture with the extra assurance from the little red dot.


Some of the better weapon lights can be focused down to a fairly small 'illuminated circle' size. At a 10' or closer distance, the highly illumiated part of the flashlight beam is only around 6 inches in diameter. You can identify a target, as you place the 6" circle on the center of mass and squeeze the trigger. Almost as good as a laser for aiming and better for two reasons: 1) target identification 2) blinding the intruder

If you practice shooting quickly as you might in a self-defense situation, you'll find that you don't have time to use the sights at all. It's just raise the gun and fire. Your brain won't even have time to see the laser or gun sights. I was surprised when I tried this. You just have to practice to develop the muscle memory and you'll be surprised how well you can hit a target simply by pointing and shooting.

I do like the lasers, too, however, and have one in my G23. It's a good dry fire practice device if nothing else.
IMG_3955.jpg
 
also about sight picture
Lasers are a good idea and if I had a hand gun i would want one for sure.

When using a shotgun with a flashlight, most shotguns only have a bead sight and should be easily seen with a flashlight. if your holding the gun to your face in the firing position with a beam of light coming from the end of the gun you should be able to see the bead because it will be blocking light to your eyes from the visible light on the target.
Also alot of people are using tritium sights which seem to glow in very low light situation, but i have no first hand experience with tritium.
 
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I'd like to tell my story, but there is not enough room and I don't feel like typing it all out.

I was attacked. One guy did the dirty work, while 9 others played supporting roles in the attack. I was able to get control of the situation due to my pistol. Nobody was hurt and the situation has settled down.

But, had I needed to fire my pistol, I had 13 rounds in the pistol and another 12 round magazine in my pocket. I'm accurate, cool under pressure, and I know I would have needed all 25 rounds. In fact, it would not have been enough.

My points:

1) Capacity can be very important, never discount that fact.
2) Pistols are very portable, therefore worthwhile in more situations.
3) Statistics are important to understand, in particular, shooting related stats, often a defense gun is emptied and few rounds hit.
4) Training (quality!) is paramount!
5) Permits are good things to have, as they can keep you out of unexpected trouble.
6) People are not the only thing you may need to defend yourself against, a neighbor lady was seriously attacked and nearly killed by 3 rotties.
 
Here is my story. My dad, who is of retired age and then some had a scare one day and recently got his ccw permit. He has been hunting with rifles and shotguns for 50 plus years, but never had a handgun. Well I went and got him a Ruger P85 Mk2 in like new condition. I took him out to the range yesterday cause it was nice. I put up a torso sillouette target at 25 yards, the maximum practical distance you will ever really need a self defense pistol.This is a man who is excellent with rifles and pistols. In his first 15 round mag he hit the target twice. He kept yelling it shoots too low and the sights are off. I took it and chewed the target up no problem with double taps.


Point being...if you get a pistol....shoot the living heck out of it. It takes a long time to get good trigger technique and of course you want to make sure the gun is broken in and reliable. The beauty of a shotgun is they are man stoppers that are easy to shoot with some margin of error as far as pattern goes. My dad can powder clays all day long but if that target was a real person, he would have given the guy legs full of lead instead of neutralizing him effectively.
 
Originally Posted By: Robenstein
Here is my story. My dad, who is of retired age and then some had a scare one day and recently got his ccw permit. He has been hunting with rifles and shotguns for 50 plus years, but never had a handgun. Well I went and got him a Ruger P85 Mk2 in like new condition. I took him out to the range yesterday cause it was nice. I put up a torso sillouette target at 25 yards, the maximum practical distance you will ever really need a self defense pistol.This is a man who is excellent with rifles and pistols. In his first 15 round mag he hit the target twice. He kept yelling it shoots too low and the sights are off. I took it and chewed the target up no problem with double taps.


Point being...if you get a pistol....shoot the living heck out of it. It takes a long time to get good trigger technique and of course you want to make sure the gun is broken in and reliable. The beauty of a shotgun is they are man stoppers that are easy to shoot with some margin of error as far as pattern goes. My dad can powder clays all day long but if that target was a real person, he would have given the guy legs full of lead instead of neutralizing him effectively.


X2, my earlier point exactly. A pistol for home defence for someone who has never owned a firearm, much less a pistol, is obviously NOT the best choice. Shotgun IS the best choice IMO.
I do like the Judge pistol in 410 though...
 
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