Subaru - best AWD technology?

[Virtus_Probi]

I can only compare the AWD in my two Subarus to the system in my old RAV4, and Subaru clearly beat Toyota there.

The RAV4 seemed to be fairly crude, sending power to the rears too quickly when it detected slip in the front...when turning on ice, even slowly, at some point the rears would suddenly get all the power and, whoa, here comes the whole back end wanting to be in front. The V6 probably made that worse...there was an electronic 4WD mode that I could pop into that would help a lot with that problem, but it only worked up to 25mph and seemed kind of like a bandaid.

No such problem with the Subarus...I can't remember the details and I'm not going to look them up right now, but they somehow work the power transfer diagonally rather than having a front/rear shift. I did manage to bury my Outback years ago when I was trying to help somebody who slid WAY off the road into deep plowed snow...didn't realize I was also driving on packed snow instead of a shoulder. My car sunk in and I was in about as bad a shape as the person I was trying to help...I asked the tow truck driver that came to help the first car to also help me when he was done. While I was waiting, I kept trying to get myself out and I could feel the power shifting back and forth from left front/right rear to right front/left rear...after about 10 minutes, I got out and cancelled the tow.

The CR-V's AWD system got a less than rave review in Sweden a couple of years ago...

http://teknikensvarld.se/honda-cr-v-4wd-system-is-not-working-again-163708/

 

[HemiHawk]

I would say price to performance its tough to beat Subaru's AWD. Are there better setups? Yes. But there is always something better in any category. Like some one mentioned above, the best thing to do is get a set of dedicated snow wheel/tires.

I did a TON of research into Haldex systems before getting my 4motion VW (Its Haldex, like the Volvo you mentioned). Its a great proactive system. Has the benefit of not always sending power 50/50. I say benefit because then fuel economy is slightly enhanced, without needing other workarounds like a CVT trans (which I understand have gotten better). I took the car around local roads the couple times we got snow/ice this year and the system impressed me. Its seamless, but the traction is terrific.

My Grand Cherokee WK2 is a MONSTER in the snow, but its way overkill for most purposes. Has "snow mode" which will start it out in second gear, and appropriate power 50/50 through the transfer case. Also has an auto locking rear diff, and brake based front traction. But usually to get a vehicle like that you sacrifice fuel economy. For awhile you could only get the QDII system with the 5.7 hemi, that may be different now and I'm sure most grand Cherokee systems would still serve well.

If fuel economy is no concern, a Grand Cherokee WK (05-2010) or Jeep Commander with the Quadra drive 2 system would be amazing in snow, and probably my first choice for a pre-owned Colorado snow machine. Front and rear E-lockers. Look up some QDII videos, they are pretty unstoppable as they will move with just one wheel traction, using mechanical means to do it.

 

[Andrew1972]

The Acura SH Awd mentioned prior is next generation Awd which Subaru is doing via braking a bit. However get my MDX in deep snow or a bit of mud and system is major fail and smells like burning brakes. I learned you have to defeat the skid control and then it acts more like regular Awd and gets itself out.

Hopefully not true of other Awd but Acura shuts the Awd down with a check engine until restart. And if a speed sensor it won't work. Subaru does not do this .

 

[Quattro Pete]

Originally Posted By: 92saturnsl2
given the choice between AWD and winter tires-- I know which one I'm choosing!

Yeah, I do, too. Wife had a Mercedes C300 4matic with all-season tires. My RWD 530i with winter tires handled the snowy midwest winters better.

With that said, it does not have to be a choice. You can put on winter tires on your AWD vehicle and have the best of both worlds, which is what we currently do on wife's Q5.

 

[gofast182]

I'm pretty in-tune with Honda/Acura stuff and haven't heard a CEL shuts down AWD. I'm sure if there was a code directly realted it could but if your O2 sensor fails, for example, it will not shut off the AWD system.

To be clear, torque vectoring and brake vectoring are different things. One happens by naturally applying torque because the drivetrain is engineered to do it, the other tries to achieve a similar effect by applying brakes (ultimately sapping some engine power) usually to overcome an open diff.

 

[Rob_Roy]

When I first started working in Vermont it was pretty obvious that there were a lot of Subaru's on the road. I asked one of my co-workers that owned an Outback if it was really "all that" in the snow, or if it was just a popular car. His reply was to go test drive one on a snowy day and make up my own mind. I took his advice and was very impressed. We now have two Subarus in the garage, and both have snow tires. I am not sure if they have "the best" AWD system, but they are the best cars in the snow that my wife or I have ever driven.

I suggest you do the same thing I did - go drive one on a snowy day and make up your own mind.

 

[gofast182]

Originally Posted By: Virtus_Probi
I can only compare the AWD in my two Subarus to the system in my old RAV4, and Subaru clearly beat Toyota there.

The RAV4 seemed to be fairly crude, sending power to the rears too quickly when it detected slip in the front...when turning on ice, even slowly, at some point the rears would suddenly get all the power and, whoa, here comes the whole back end wanting to be in front. The V6 probably made that worse...there was an electronic 4WD mode that I could pop into that would help a lot with that problem, but it only worked up to 25mph and seemed kind of like a bandaid.

No such problem with the Subarus...I can't remember the details and I'm not going to look them up right now, but they somehow work the power transfer diagonally rather than having a front/rear shift. I did manage to bury my Outback years ago when I was trying to help somebody who slid WAY off the road into deep plowed snow...didn't realize I was also driving on packed snow instead of a shoulder. My car sunk in and I was in about as bad a shape as the person I was trying to help...I asked the tow truck driver that came to help the first car to also help me when he was done. While I was waiting, I kept trying to get myself out and I could feel the power shifting back and forth from left front/right rear to right front/left rear...after about 10 minutes, I got out and cancelled the tow.

The CR-V's AWD system got a less than rave review in Sweden a couple of years ago...

http://teknikensvarld.se/honda-cr-v-4wd-system-is-not-working-again-163708/

Note that in the link it says almost exactly what I said above. In '12-'14 they decouple the system to protect it if there's 0 friction because even on ice, unlike rollers, there is some friction and the AWD will engage. I've never seen a stuck CR-V in person, probably because there aren't rollers placed on hills on the way to work in January and February.

 

[FutureDoc]

Originally Posted By: gofast182
When do you ever drive your Subaru or RAV4 on rollers? Never. The problem with those is they're zero friction. Even on hard packed snow and some ice there's some level of friction aka traction, albeit very small. For example the '12-'14 CR-V actually disabled its AWD system when there was literally zero friction to protect the components (again keeping in mind in the real world there's usually some level of traction, even on ice).


If you live in the Flat NJ swamp, I guess it makes sense that you are not aware of the differences. There is a reason why Subaru outnumber Camrys in the Mountains.

You missed the point of those roller tests. The point of the rollers was to remove wheels from the being able to provide power and put the onus on one wheel to propel the vehicle. This is where the Subaru AWD system becomes legendary compared to other AWD systems and 4WD systems without a locking diff. I live in the mountains and YES there are occasions were due to weight transfer, slope and road condition, you might be dependent on one wheel to do the pushing up a hill. I live in a 1/3 slope. Heck, the "flat" part of my property is still 22% slope. We do not get a lot of snow volume but good amount of frequent small amounts. There are instances that you need to have the rear passenger or the front driver to propel the vehicle. Other AWD systems struggle and often can not send enough torque to the correct wheel when needed. Subaru is not perfect here either but it is better than any other AWD system and would be better than a lot of more traditional 4WD systems. Actually, (and off-road and 4WD can tear this apart but... but I am oversimplifying for an ease of the argument...)Subaru's AWD system acts a lot like an idiot-proof locked diff system. Yes, I know it is not the same but for the lay-person, the torque bias is not present in the Subie. Torque is split 50:50 L/R although there is normally some front bias in most models normal operations but those rear wheels will have the same amount of torque to both sides. That was what the rollers shows. The Rav4 sends more power to one side than the other. Other Subaru models and transmissions (manual) can be 50:50 or RWD biased.

I joked with my brother (lived in rural western Minnesota) that I needed AWD more than he did. His area was flat, decent snow clearing, but a lot of snow. My area is a mountain, no snow clearing, but small snows/ice. It does not mater if it is 1/2 of an inch or 1/2 of a foot, loss of traction is a loss of traction. Loss of traction on a hill means you are not going forward.

FYI, being someone who is a public safety professional and gets paid to drive in hazardous weather, I have driven a lot of vehicles in snowy weather. Mostly US AWD/4WD Ford Explorer, Escape, Rangers, Dodge Journeys, 4WD Caravan, Jeep Cherokees (XJs) and Chevy Suburbans, Trailblazers. I have also driven RWD E450s cutaways in the snow, yay! I would drop all of those options for a Subaru. The only brand that is "worth it" that I have not driven a lot in the weather would be Audi and since they are going to that new FWD based system i, I am not sure I will get the chance.

Originally Posted By: gofast182
Tires! So much of this is down to tires that each OE chooses. Btw I'll take a Focus with high quality snow tires over an Impreza with AWD and all-seasons any day.


I generally agree. I got to the hospital in a FWD Honda fit in 10in of snow when the Range Rover Sport in Summer Tires (NOT MINE, HA!) was stuck in the ditch. If you live in a flat area, this might be "ok". Live in a truly hilly area, but actually, that Impreza with AWD and all seasons will be better in many instances. If your focus with snow tires only have grip in the rear, then you are dead on the road. Does not matter that you have snow tires. The wheels you need lack any drive power. Tires are more important in most case (I know, I drive RWD in the winter mostly, the Mrs has the Subie now). However, depending on the area, you need a good vehicle to send power correct wheels. That is Subaru's biggest advantage. It can keep torque to both sides correctly.

You mentioned Acura's SH-AWD and that tries to get a similar result that is very similar to Subaru's standard system. It can send power around... but it can't quite do the same thing that Subies do for 1/2 the price. However, Acura still struggles to send power equally. It can send 70% of the available power to the rear axle and then transfer power from each wheel might be a bit more less efficient. Keep in mind that sending power to the rear axle is different than sending it to the wheels. You are reliant on the CPU so it might struggles to send power evenly/correctly to each wheel. Better than a lot of other systems but not Subaru IMO.

 

[FutureDoc]

Originally Posted By: NissanMaxima
Hi all: I've been looking to get a used Subaru Forester or Outback for Colorado winters because I understand their AWD is the best - bar none. I've seen some interesting youtube videos of Rav4's, Honda CRV's and the like trying to climb up inclines etc.and they all fail compared to the Subaru. From what I understand, and correct me if I'm wrong, what makes the Subaru AWD unique is that all four wheels are powered ALL the time. According to awdwiki.com, from '96 on there is a constant 80/20 power split between from and rear but what I don't know is if that is further increased to the rear when rear wheel slippage is detected. Even a Subaru shop here couldn't answer that question for me. I understand the competition like Toyota, Honda, Kia, etc. etc. have 100% power to the front wheels and rely on rear wheel slippage before rear wheels are powered.

Do folks here concur Subaru has the best AWD system out there? What about the Haldex system on Volvos like the V50? They have always had a reputation for very good safety but what about their AWD?


For the OP:

The best AWD systems are Suabru and Audi's Quattro. If you want to toss a true 4WD with a transfer case/lockers, then it is hard to be the true off-roading Jeeps (not the off-road "looking" jeeps like the Renegade or Cherokee). You live in the mountains, so yeah, Subarus will have that following. You can't beat them especially if you consider the other trade-offs such as ease of use, livability, fuel mileage and reliability.

As for the bias, it depends on the model, transmission, engine, and even a few other item. Heck, Subaru could be bias at different gears/speeds. My old 210K+ '99 was 90/10 front biased (automatic with the 2.5 and 4EAT tranny). However, in first gear, it was 50:50 and then was bias at speed. If it was a manual, it would be 50:50 all the time. WRX often has a rear bias of 35:65. More modern Subarus with a fantastic CVT (no lie, I truly LOVE that transmission and I only have manuals from my DD - the Mrs requires the auto) can have between a 60:40 bias. If it had the 6 cyclinder option, I think that is 45:55 rear bias. But really, it depends on the model and specs so much, that is the reason no one can give you a straight reason. Still, with my old 99 Outback with the most front bias, it was a monster in the snow. Just with 50:50 in first is all you really need. Now with my 60:40 2014, that thing is even better. Wow.

Still, Subaru is 50:50 from side to side. There is no bias with sending power left and right. That is the advantage in the mountains.

 

[Huie83]

I've owned a few Subaru's and actually prefer more intelligent systems like the Quadra-drive etc. What I didn't like about the Subaru was the tenancy for the rear end to kick out when trying to accelerate around slippery turns or from a stand still. These were late 90's manual transmission Impreza's though so your experience may be different.

 

[Quattro Pete]

Originally Posted By: FutureDoc
The best AWD systems are Suabru and Audi's Quattro.

Just to be clear, quattro is just a marketing term. There can be very different AWD technologies hiding behind it: torsen, haldex, others. Each one has its advantages and disadvantages.

 

[gofast182]

Originally Posted By: FutureDoc
Originally Posted By: gofast182
When do you ever drive your Subaru or RAV4 on rollers? Never. The problem with those is they're zero friction. Even on hard packed snow and some ice there's some level of friction aka traction, albeit very small. For example the '12-'14 CR-V actually disabled its AWD system when there was literally zero friction to protect the components (again keeping in mind in the real world there's usually some level of traction, even on ice).


If you live in the Flat NJ swamp, I guess it makes sense that you are not aware of the differences. There is a reason why Subaru outnumber Camrys in the Mountains.

You missed the point of those roller tests. The point of the rollers was to remove wheels from the being able to provide power and put the onus on one wheel to propel the vehicle. This is where the Subaru AWD system becomes legendary compared to other AWD systems and 4WD systems without a locking diff. I live in the mountains and YES there are occasions were due to weight transfer, slope and road condition, you might be dependent on one wheel to do the pushing up a hill. I live in a 1/3 slope. Heck, the "flat" part of my property is still 22% slope. We do not get a lot of snow volume but good amount of frequent small amounts. There are instances that you need to have the rear passenger or the front driver to propel the vehicle. Other AWD systems struggle and often can not send enough torque to the correct wheel when needed. Subaru is not perfect here either but it is better than any other AWD system and would be better than a lot of more traditional 4WD systems. Actually, (and off-road and 4WD can tear this apart but... but I am oversimplifying for an ease of the argument...)Subaru's AWD system acts a lot like an idiot-proof locked diff system. Yes, I know it is not the same but for the lay-person, the torque bias is not present in the Subie. Torque is split 50:50 L/R although there is normally some front bias in most models normal operations but those rear wheels will have the same amount of torque to both sides. That was what the rollers shows. The Rav4 sends more power to one side than the other. Other Subaru models and transmissions (manual) can be 50:50 or RWD biased.

I joked with my brother (lived in rural western Minnesota) that I needed AWD more than he did. His area was flat, decent snow clearing, but a lot of snow. My area is a mountain, no snow clearing, but small snows/ice. It does not mater if it is 1/2 of an inch or 1/2 of a foot, loss of traction is a loss of traction. Loss of traction on a hill means you are not going forward.

FYI, being someone who is a public safety professional and gets paid to drive in hazardous weather, I have driven a lot of vehicles in snowy weather. Mostly US AWD/4WD Ford Explorer, Escape, Rangers, Dodge Journeys, 4WD Caravan, Jeep Cherokees (XJs) and Chevy Suburbans, Trailblazers. I have also driven RWD E450s cutaways in the snow, yay! I would drop all of those options for a Subaru. The only brand that is "worth it" that I have not driven a lot in the weather would be Audi and since they are going to that new FWD based system i, I am not sure I will get the chance.

Originally Posted By: gofast182
Tires! So much of this is down to tires that each OE chooses. Btw I'll take a Focus with high quality snow tires over an Impreza with AWD and all-seasons any day.


I generally agree. I got to the hospital in a FWD Honda fit in 10in of snow when the Range Rover Sport in Summer Tires (NOT MINE, HA!) was stuck in the ditch. If you live in a flat area, this might be "ok". Live in a truly hilly area, but actually, that Impreza with AWD and all seasons will be better in many instances. If your focus with snow tires only have grip in the rear, then you are dead on the road. Does not matter that you have snow tires. The wheels you need lack any drive power. Tires are more important in most case (I know, I drive RWD in the winter mostly, the Mrs has the Subie now). However, depending on the area, you need a good vehicle to send power correct wheels. That is Subaru's biggest advantage. It can keep torque to both sides correctly.

You mentioned Acura's SH-AWD and that tries to get a similar result that is very similar to Subaru's standard system. It can send power around... but it can't quite do the same thing that Subies do for 1/2 the price. However, Acura still struggles to send power equally. It can send 70% of the available power to the rear axle and then transfer power from each wheel might be a bit more less efficient. Keep in mind that sending power to the rear axle is different than sending it to the wheels. You are reliant on the CPU so it might struggles to send power evenly/correctly to each wheel. Better than a lot of other systems but not Subaru IMO.

I live in a generally flat area but parts of NJ are hilly and actually mountainous. I get what you're saying and I did say Subaru's system is great (in case you missed that part). But the fact is that even when you lose traction there is still some level of friction so it would be extremely rare that anyone is ever "on rollers" in the real world. In December I drove a Subaru in Colorado when I was there for work (talk about some steep hills). It was good for sure but I didn't see any RAV4s, CR-Vs, CX-5s, or Escapes strewn all over the side of the road, they were getting on just fine, too.

Subaru's *standard* system does not proactively torque vector and it cannot overdrive the outside wheel while turning. I've had the MDX in the Poconos, on unplowed steep grades, on ice, hard pack, deep snow, and slush. It has been exemplary and there are noticeable dry weather handling benefits, too.

 

[DaRider34]

What about sand and mud?

Compact Suv Offroad

Found this older comparison article said:

the Toyota RAV4 and Mitsubishi Outlander have the best four-wheel-drive systems.

Both have a ‘lock’ button that essentially divides power equally between the front and rear wheels at all times – the Mazda and Volkswagen mostly send drive to the front, with power only going to the rear wheels when the computer detects it should.

The Outlander ultimately gets the gong off-road, because its stability control can be completely turned off, where the RAV4 stability control can get confused and intervene too much.

That’s the downfall of the Subaru Forester – a stability control that just won’t quit. It grabs a front brake, only to upset the rear end, then tries to fix the problem it has created. Otherwise, the Forester is just as capable as the RAV4 and Outlander, and offers class-leading ground clearance.

 

[ARCOgraphite]

Iv had eight Subaru over the years - I liked the earlierones better, without the nannies. Our rav 4 and my current Nissan are just as good if not better. I recall one slushy winter, with the poor OEM tires on the forester, the traction control was constantly cutting power. My Yaris went thru the snow better that day - with steelies and -2 winterforce in the frontwith 26 lbs air.

Try pulling out in traffic and have the engine go dead as a 18 wheeler is barreling down on you.

If you don't shut off the moron govt ninny nannies in tough conditions, you may end up dead. These were all Manual transmission foresters.

Subaru system is not superior other than the engine is longitudinal ALA classic audi Quattro with the engine mainly ahead of the front axle giving a large Front mass bias with the lever action on the front tires. OTW on the MT its 2 wheel drive with an open differential at each with the "option" of ABS torque vectoring. WRX STi has more advanced features.

Again Rav, Nissan Rogue, Subaru all decent snow bunnies - DEPENDING ON TIRES! Some OE choices of tires are poor winter choices.

 

[KrisZ]

As mentioned before, there is a video of Mazda CX-5 beating a Forrester I believe. These videos can be staged in all sorts of ways.

 

[d00df00d]

Originally Posted By: 92saturnsl2
Originally Posted By: d00df00d
For winter traction, the advantages of winter tires are FAR more important than the advantages of AWD vs. 2WD, let alone one AWD system vs. another. Unless you absolutely cannot afford the remotest possibility of staying home for a day or two per year due to snow, you're better off buying the car you want regardless of which wheels are driven, and then keeping a second set of cheap wheels with winter tires for the snowy months.


You seem to contradict yourself-- so if one can't afford the possibility of staying home, are you implying that 4wd is better? Wouldn't that indicate that 4wd has better traction? I think it depends on which type of traction you value more.

I've spent all my driving years in rough winter climates- Colorado and Vermont and I couldn't disagree with you more. AWD/4wd gets you moving, when you otherwise might not. No amount of winter tire is going to give you the same traction while accelerating as 4wd would.

I can change my driving behavior to account for poor stopping and cornering performance, if the tires suck. I can't wave a magic wand and get my vehicle moving if I find myself stopped on an icy incline.

Having been stuck more than once (mostly in my younger days when nothing stopped me from getting on the roads), given the choice between AWD and winter tires-- I know which one I'm choosing!

So I'm assuming you know this, but it's worth reiterating. Snow compromises your car's ability to do three things:

1. Brake
2. Turn
3. Accelerate

#1 and #2 are safety-critical. #3 is not. In other words, if you get stuck and can't accelerate, that's annoying; if you can't stop or turn, you're going to crash, and you might take someone else with you.

AWD/4WD might help acceleration more than winter tires do, but it does little or nothing for braking or turning; in fact, its extra mass might actually hurt. And the rest of the time, when it's not helping -- i.e. 99.9% of the time you spend driving -- you're pointlessly lugging around all that extra machinery, with the reduced efficiency and maintenance liabilities that come with it.

Winter tires, on the other hand, help everything with no penalties other than a minor increase in tread noise.

Moreover, if you think of a scenario in which AWD with all-season tires would get you unstuck where 2WD with winter tires would fail, it's super deep snow or an icy incline. If you're paying attention to weather reports and driving on actual roads, your chances of encountering those conditions unexpectedly are essentially zero. If you regularly encounter those conditions, OR if you're someone who has to be able to drive 24/7/365 with zero excuses come [censored] or high water, then by all means get your AWD car. Otherwise, you're among the 99.9% of people who would be better off with winter tires.

The tone of your post could be read to imply that the AWD-vs.-winter-tires comparison holds no matter what tires are on the AWD car. If anyone got that idea, it's a BAD one. The comparison only works when the AWD car has good all-season or all-weather tires with plenty of tread. If the tires are cheap or bald, have been heat-cycled to death, or have summer compounds, all bets are off. You lose AWD's acceleration advantage, and the braking and cornering disadvantages vs. winter tires are even worse.

I know this is hard logic to stomach. I'm not sure I understand why, but I know it is. It's a great example of when human intuition hangs a bunch of weight on one factor when bigger threats are elsewhere. Maybe the main thing here is that everyone has had more experience with tire slip under acceleration than with an inability to stop or turn; that'd make it easy to operate as though the ability to accelerate is the alpha and omega of snow traction. Either way, as always, the solution is just to lay everything out and think statistically.

As for adjusting your driving style, that's fine -- but it does nothing to eliminate the margin of safety that winter tires offer. If your tires suck and you drive slowly enough to compensate, you'd still have a lot more safety margin with good tires. Besides, I don't know if "I'll just keep all these safety parameters just within the margins" is an argument you really want to make. And of course, one could easily counter your example with the fact that if the roads really are that icy, or the snow is that high, you can just stay home.... unless you're a first responder or something, in which case, as I said above, go ahead and get your AWD vehicle.

 

[FutureDoc]

Originally Posted By: gofast182
I live in a generally flat area but parts of NJ are hilly and actually mountainous. I get what you're saying and I did say Subaru's system is great (in case you missed that part). But the fact is that even when you lose traction there is still some level of friction so it would be extremely rare that anyone is ever "on rollers" in the real world. In December I drove a Subaru in Colorado when I was there for work (talk about some steep hills). It was good for sure but I didn't see any RAV4s, CR-Vs, CX-5s, or Escapes strewn all over the side of the road, they were getting on just fine, too.

Subaru's *standard* system does not proactively torque vector and it cannot overdrive the outside wheel while turning. I've had the MDX in the Poconos, on unplowed steep grades, on ice, hard pack, deep snow, and slush. It has been exemplary and there are noticeable dry weather handling benefits, too.

From out tourist board...

Yeah, just driving along, most AWD will be fine. None are actively, sending folks into the ditch... Actually, most RWD and FRW would have been fine in most cases when most folks think the *need* AWD. The difference is that Subaru gets you going/out in the rough areas. When you are dealing with the worst traction, transferring to the outside wheel is irreverent. My open diff Genesis does that.... uggg. That transfer to the outside is often a design flaw in bad weather but it is a perk in decent weather.

Get "stuck" or in a spot where you have extreme lack of traction and only at one corner, then the symmetrical or lack of bias is key. That is where you see trade-offs cropping off in how the AWD is designed. Some vehicles, the Rav4 especially are know to transfer power poorly. Honda is known for a lot of vectoring but it can be overwhelmed in the worst cases.

 

[homeyclaus]

AWD might get you going, it's snow tires that stop you. In my time driving in deep snow in British Columbia, Alberta, and the Yukon I saw a lot of Subies in the ditch, along with your standard assortment of AWD/4WD SUVs and CUVs. That being said, subies seemed to suck the least, all else being equal, but everything is an engineering compromise.

Back in the 80's, Subaru and Audi were doing their thing, and others played in the AWD market occasionally - Toyota sold a AWD Corolla wagon, Mercedes developed 4Matic, etc.

Over time, these systems both evolved, but further, they became commodities sold by automotive suppliers. This means that these days, one of four companies holds the patents for, and likely manufactures the tooling and software to power, anyone's AWD system:

- Haldex (Volvo, IIRC some Quattro too)
- Magna (4Matic, xDrive, FCA's AWD, some Ford, Hyundai, Kia, Renault, Nissan)
- GKN (some Ford AWD (notably the Focus RS Mk3), Honda/Acura SH-AWD, Range Rover, some 2016-later Volvo)
- Aisin/Borg Warner (Some Quattro/VW/Porsche, Subaru, Toyota)

Entries in bold I am quite sure of. Other manufacturers play in the space - most are SME-type designers and builders in Germany like ZF, Mahle, etc.

Every manufacturer has several different versions they make for the automakers ("labels"), including Subaru, meaning that depending on the year, application, and market you could have a infinitely variable AWD system or some maximum of symmetry or bias is in the system. In the current Subarus, the automatic/CVT models get a front-biased AWD system, whereas the manual transmissions get a rear-biased system, which makes the car "feel like" a FWD or RWD car in good traction conditions, respectively. Older Quattro systems used Torsen center differentials, and later models used wet clutch systems that were computer controlled.

Nearly everyone today uses three open differentials and then uses the torque transfer characteristics of these differentials to control output using the vehicle braking systems, the electronics being part of the ABS/ESC/ETC package.


Note: 4WD systems are completely different animals. This includes the full-time 4WD systems from FCA like Quadra-Trac and the Toyota Land Cruiser/4Runner systems. As in Full-time 4WD is not AWD, although it behaves as such much of the time. There are definitely similarities.

 

[dgunay]

Honda owners say "SH-AWD is the best"
Subaru owners say "Symmetrical AWD is the best"
VW/Audi owners say "Quattro is the best".

Let me tell you, it really doesn't matter. Get the best winter tire, and call it a day. As long as it's a full time 4 wheel drive, you won't feel a difference in Colorado.

If I really have to pick one AWD/4WD technology, as a Honda owner, I would pick S-AWC (Mitsubishi).

Also, I wouldn't compare AWD system of a base Subaru vs. an STI, which comes with DCCD. Just saying.

 

[FutureDoc]

Originally Posted By: ARCOgraphite
Iv had eight Subaru over the years - I liked the earlierones better, without the nannies.

If you don't shut off the moron govt ninny nannies in tough conditions, you may end up dead. These were all Manual transmission foresters.


^ I will agree with you on this. The VDC was great and the pre-stability control were "easier" when you knew what you were doing. Actually, a lot of the older AWD/4WD system were better but not user friendly. The All-Trac and whatever the Suzuki Samurai used (traditional locker/transfer case)

That being said, the Nannies are "ok" to keep the stupid people from being stupid. Not as useful when you know what you are doing.


I find it interesting that you like the Nissan's system. I am likely getting one in my fleet but one of my fleet employees left Nissan for Subaru after one storm. She was a Nissan fangirl too. Starting with a 510 and then a half-dozen Zs, Pathfinders, and then the Juke.