Study: Better Filtration = Lower Wear ?

msparks · Apr 9, 2005

quote:

Originally posted by TooSlick:
Buster,

I haven't installed Amsoil bypass filters on my personal cars, even though these systems work exactly as advertised. You'll never wear out any lubricated parts of an engine using Amsoil and their standard air/oil filters, even if you keep the car for 300,000-400,000 miles. I've never had a customer replace any lubricated part on any engine or transmission using Amsoil and I've been actively selling it for about ten years. I am 100% serious about this ....

I only recommend bypass filters for diesel engine pickups, OTR trucks and other commercial applications like Taxi Cabs and Police cars, or maybe delivery vans that run > 25,000 miles per year.

Ted

Ted while it is true, that you prolly won't wear out a well taken care of engine. It sure is nice not having to change oil for 3+ years.

On my 1997 F150, it's probably the least likely candidate for by-pass filteration (about 7500-10,000 annual milage) But last change was 3 years and around 30,000 miles. This is most economical for me, as I'm only dropping 1 quart of oil every 6 months and a filter. I was using the SDF 26(2 quart) but went down to the 15(FL1 size) to save money and less makeup oil. On the by-pass filter I'm changing that at 18 months or so.

Like you said the by-pass filter shines with higher milage drivers. 25,000+ per year. If you doing that, and running a synthhetic I would say in 1 year you would be in the black as far as pay backs go. This is even at the Suggested retail price of the oil and filters.

1911 · Apr 9, 2005

Thanks for the bit of info. While I do believe it's true, (most wear metals are not really "particles" but most at the likely atomic level. I do believe that the better filteration will normally show lower wear levels across the board. Especially on Extended drains.

Excellent post!!!! This makes perfect sense.

Cujet · Apr 9, 2005

I thought I would post a possible real world result here in this thread. I understand it is not a direct comparison, however I believe the results are worth noting.

The aircraft I work on (Gulfstream G550, like GV) has micronic filters on both hydraulic systems and the engines. The OEM engine filters were 1.5 micron filters and would clog at about the 500 hour interval. The solution was to install a 3 micron filter. Jet engines have clean oil!

The Hyd sys is another matter. Older Gulfstream IV adn V aircraft had serious hyd sys problems associated with wear. Including massive pump cylinder wear. Part of the solution was to use sub micron filters in the hyd sys as full flow filters. The onboard filters actually keep the fluid cleaner than out of the can! The result is far longer pump life, component life and little risk of contamination. One method we use to clean the fluid is to attach a hyd mule and circulate the fluid for about 10 hours. We then take samples, run them over to the lab, and determine the status of the fluid.

There is no question that particulate matter as small as 3 microns cause higher rates of wear on precision parts.

Chris

msparks · Apr 10, 2005

quote:

Originally posted by 1911:
Thanks for the bit of info. While I do believe it's true, (most wear metals are not really "particles" but most at the likely atomic level.

Okay, take a piece of copper or similar soft metal. Rub it for several hours with your finger. Will there be "particles" prolly not but your figure will turn "copper" colored. This is a simplification, but the rubbing wears the metal, but does not "shave" off particles.

Now if you had a coat of oil between your finger, it would take a lot longer and you would have less oil.

TooSlick · Apr 10, 2005

Chris,

Hydraulic systems and PS systems are a whole different animal and filtration down to 1 um is very beneficial in these situations, due to high pressures, flow rates and very precise tolerances of valves.

Michael,

An excellent analogy ....

Ted

Stinky Peterson · Apr 10, 2005

quote:

Originally posted by Stinky Peterson:
In most cases you will not see a reduction in wear element levels when using a better filter. I have seen this time and time again since we routinely filter systems in order to comply with our contamination control program guidelines.

I wanted to clarify something I said earlier. What I mean is the actual ppm levels may not drop. Many or even most of the wear debris we are measuring are too small to be removed by filters. There is no doubt in my mind that better filters are beneficial. It might be hard to justify the cost however.

Something else, when we filter we circulate the oil and put it back into the machine. So to further qualify my statement I am talking about multiple analysis of the same oil. This is where we do not see a drop in element levels but do see a drop in particle counts.

[ April 10, 2005, 07:10 PM: Message edited by: Stinky Peterson ]

doitmyself · Apr 10, 2005

Educate me, please. Where do the "3 to 10+" micron wear particles come from?

Thru the air filter?

If so, why don't we spend more time obsessing about air filtration?

buster · Apr 10, 2005

http://www.mg-sportcars.co.uk/Motor_Oil_FA_Questions.htm

Martin Williamson of Noria UK

quote:

From research I am involved with I know that wear can be radically reduced through finer filtration, and that automotive filters are not rated in the same way industrial filters are. From testing at a certain site, we found an average 5BHP more on cleaner engines after 900hr endurance testing. Since wear will influence fuel economy and emissions, as well as oil consumption, I am keen to practise what I preach in my training and consulting, so I will investigate breather and filter options in addition to the oil filters

1sttruck · Apr 11, 2005

This is similar to another thread:

http://theoildrop.server101.com/ubb/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic;f=22;t=000455#000000

Another consideration on particles is that for a given population of particles a thinner oil will exhibit more wear, however slight. Some synthetics might offset it a bit due to film strength, but it'll still be greater than with thicker synthetic oil. The UOAs available show that one needs to be careful with extended change intervals as particles can show up from unexpected places.

Is it possible that the higher iron that seems common in Mobil 1 PCMO might be due to the typical thinner film producing more wear due particles ?

JohnBrowning · Apr 11, 2005

1) A full flow filter is the best thing since sliced bread! Car's had bypass filters fromthe OEM a long time ago as the sole filtering source adn they did not last long!

2) A bypass filter in addition to a primary full flow h as some merit but not much to average joe!

3) If a preoiler was going to be that effective in preventing wear we should expect to see huge spikes in wear metals of Hybrids like the Prius and we do not!

I think that bypass filters do what they claim but do not offer enough marginal return for the average owner to be worth while! I also think that any time youhad complexity to any thing you increase the odds of failure! It has been my experince froma n OEM perspective that hydralic lines will always leak sooner or latter! The average person does not check the conditions of hydralic lines! Most owners have no idea that a line is leaking until it fails and then they drive until the engien blows. The only hydralic systems I would put on a vechile would have to be preety much like a brake line but made out of SS.

If I had a nickle for every time I have seen an oem or aftermarket oil cooler or trany cooler line fail I could eat for year!

I used to do alot of hard core rock climbing and off roading. I always carried spare parts incudeling hydralic line, steel lines, fluids, plugs, wires, old cap and rotor, small selection or hardware,belts, brazeing or welding equipment etc... I expected something to break/fail at the worst opertunity. The problem is that I did not carry these things on a routine 1300 mile road trip with the family! What happens if that failure hapens in the middle of a snow storm in the middle of no place, in the desert, or maybe dureing an evacuation?

Life has taught me that the simpler you make a hydralic circuit the better! If you do not need it leave it off!!

I take great pride in always comeing home under my own power!!!! No tow strap for me and no trailer queen either!!

Study: Better Filtration = Lower Wear ?

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