Stop warping your brake rotors...

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Most warped rotors are due to cheaply sourced rotors. The foundrys that are pouring for GM,DC and Ford are not git to make cannons. They are dirt floor foundrys in some cases with no place to dump a bad load of iron or steel. THey are not chaecking the temp at the molds. THe fact that the metal is at the right temp at the cupola is meaningless at the mold. You have good old boys eyeballing the iron by color!

Their is also a lack of good quality control on the material side of things. THe only redeeming thing is that they are cheap!!

As much as it pains me to say this the chineese are actualy makeing a better quality rotor then most U.S. and Canada SOurced rotors.

This is improveing though. As many DOmestic car manufactures have noticed the large gap in quality between them and their competitiors brakes. Most domestic products with automatic terans get about 12,000-16,000 miles per rotor and pad set compared to most import vechiles getting into the 60,000-100,000 mile rang or more with either origanal pads and rotor. Seldom do you replace rotors on a Toyota with leth then 150,000 miles! Their drums usualy last even longer! Prior to outsourced GM had some of the finest foundrys in the world!!!

I tired to convince the company I work for to ad more nickle and some cromium to the spec for our rotors but I was told to take a hike! I also proposed a few methods to help the parts cool more evenly.

This information I presented came right from a gentle man that was once reponseable for improveing GM's foundrys in the mid 1980's and he ran them until they outsourced everything. He now works for American Axle.

[ December 20, 2003, 04:09 PM: Message edited by: JohnBrowning ]
 
Imperfections in the material and a low yield strength will definitely give a rotor a short life. With Hondas, I can go over 100,000 miles on front pads, never need to change the rear pads, and based on thickness the rotors would probably last the life of the car if I drove them to 300,000 miles.
 
Hey gumby_66 in edmonton, you're skating 4-6 months a year! A few seconds in that weather and your rotors really cool down. Can't even stop "hard" in that weather!

Just kidding
 
Thank you speedy341. My brakes were starting to
pulsate slightly a couple of months ago. I read
that article in the net about brake pad deposits,
and took action. Over the following four weeks,
my brakes smoothened out again.

I am now a creeper, and proud of it!
 
quote:

Originally posted by gumby_66:
I try a save my brakes and rotors by timing the lights.

I read somewhere that depending on the size of your vehicle it takes 50 - 100 horse power to restart a vehicle that is stopped.

Most times I'm only doing 10 to 20 KMH when the light changes or the car in front of me starts to move ahead.

I have 67000K on the orginal brake pads.

All my friends say I drive like a little old lady, but why go like a bat out of hell just to hammer the brakes at the next light.

Steve


I do too, but as mentioned above, the brainless are out breeding us. If I come up on a recently changed green light, if there are more than 2-3 cars, I can count on stopping because at least one will just set there instead of starting to move. Either that, or they will only be up to about 25 a block away. Of course, the creepers that have crept up to where they are almost touching the car ahead of them, have to set there that much longer before they can start moving. Once traffic does start to move, the prolific brainless will weave through traffic so they can get to the next light while it is still red and slam on their brakes, preparing for the next cycle of not moving until half way through the green light. You end up moving almost as many through the intersection after it is red as on the green.
 
I generally try to pay attention so I can start coasting down rather than slam on my brakes needlessly. When I come to a stop, it is slow and easy, but once I completely stop, I like to stay that way until it's time to go again. I don't stop on purpose with a couple of car lengths ahead of me, then creep forward to close the gap.
 
To everyone trying to "save" their brake pads, c'mon! They're cheap, and after 30k or so you really should disassemble clean and relube the sliders. Old pads crack, separate from the backing plate, pit etc...
 
I always drop a couple of gears and let engine braking slow me down...

My brakes last forever; can't figure out why my clutch and transmission keep wearing out though...???

Clutch = $600.00
Transmission = $2000.00
Frt. brake pads = $ 50.00

Hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm ?????

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After getting new pads I drive for a 100 miles or so then "let the smoke out of them" with three hard 60-5 mph stops. Then allowing them to completely cool. I feel warped rotors come more form cheap pad material sticking to the rotor than any other thing.
 
No offense, but is this in humor?

quote:

Originally posted by SHOZ:
After getting new pads I drive for a 100 miles or so then "let the smoke out of them" with three hard 60-5 mph stops. Then allowing them to completely cool. I feel warped rotors come more form cheap pad material sticking to the rotor than any other thing.

 
quote:

Originally posted by S2000driver:
No offense, but is this in humor?

quote:

Originally posted by SHOZ:
After getting new pads I drive for a 100 miles or so then "let the smoke out of them" with three hard 60-5 mph stops. Then allowing them to completely cool. I feel warped rotors come more form cheap pad material sticking to the rotor than any other thing.


I believe he's talking about the proper method for bedding brake pads. He should be bedding the pads immediately not driving 100 miles first. Generally with my race pads (autocross car) I do 3-5 stops from 35-5 with moderate pressure and 3 more from 60-5 with heavy pressure. You must also allow for them to cool between cycles and after the process is finished. Dragging the brakes is to be avoided as this will leave an uneven layer of material on the rotor-hence why you go down to 5 mph not zero. Disclaimer: this assumes the rotors aren't virgin. It is true that an uneven distribution of pad material on the rotors will give that "warped feeling."

[ December 26, 2003, 01:48 AM: Message edited by: RobZ71LM7 ]
 
Well for most people this advice is counter to what is appropriate for breaking in new conventional pads on conventional rotors.

According to all my owner's manuals: "New brakes need to be broken-in my moderate use for the first 200 miles (300 km)."
 
S2000driver...

You said...

quote:

NO NO NO NO!

If you can't creep forward, at least KEEP your foot firmly on the brake. This will make sure that the pad continues to contact the rotor and provide a solid path for heat to flow and the rotor under the pad to cool reasonably well. The less you push on the brake, the less effective contact area for heat to flow.

Furthermore, if you put the car in neutral, and take your foot off the brake, a very small air gap is created between the pads and rotor, and there is no longer conduction. In this case, if the car doesn't creep forward, you are effectively INSULATING part of your rotor from cooling, further increasing the difference in cooling rates around the rotor.

I say NO NO NO! to everything you've just said...

Uneven cooling causes brake warping; if you insist on pressing a super-heated brake pad against one part of the rotor, it will cause just a part of the rotor to remain very hot as the rest cools slowly. The entire rotor is losing heat to the air around it...your insulating comment is false. Furthermore, holding the pad against the rotor may cause uneven deposits of pad material at that point on the rotor, which can cause brake "judder" as well.

Creeping is good...standing on the pedal after a hard stop is VERY! bad...

PS - go to any performance brake pad manufacturers web site, and all will have detailed instructions on how to "bed-in" brake pads. Driving gently for the first x many miles is NOT! the way to do it, regardless of what the owners manual says. CONTROLLED heating and cooling, by using a series of firm stops to generate heat and brake pad film transfer, is the correct way of doing it...

PSS- Going a 100 000 miles on front pads only means the pads themselves are WAY! to hard. And if the pad is not wearing, the ROTOR! is. Honda pads are for the most part mediocre anyway. Adequate for everyday driving, but not great for spirited driving where the brakes get really hot.

And...if you're not heating up an S2000's brakes once in a while, you might as well be driving a Civic...!

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quote:

Originally posted by S2000driver:
Well for most people this advice is counter to what is appropriate for breaking in new conventional pads on conventional rotors.

According to all my owner's manuals: "New brakes need to be broken-in my moderate use for the first 200 miles (300 km)."


Well of course you're going to have to be easy (moderate) if they've never been properly bedded. But remember who manufacturers have in mind when owner's manuals are published. It's simply not practical for most people in urban areas to be able to bed their pads like I decribed (eg. b/c of traffic congestion). I've used this on Raybestos PG Plus pads (oem equiv) as well as Hawk HPS (street pads) and HP+ (street/track pads) and it works well on all. The way I bed them is pretty musch the same way Hawk outlines that you bed their street and race pads.

Now if you've got both new pads and rotors you'll do it differently. The usual recommendation for that is to make a few moderate/light stops just to get the new rotors to temp....let them cool completely....then proceded with normal pad bedding. So far the original rotors on my '94 camaro are unwarped-even with autocross use and aggressive pads. I think a lot of it comes down to proper bedding.

Can you tell I'm anal about brakes?
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As someone who's track-raced sports cars since the 80's, I'm not sure the heat-related problems mentioned here are wholly applicable to the street scenarios some folks have mentioned. I believe the car or light truck that substantially heats up its brakes during one "hard stop" is rare indeed -- such vehicles wouldn't stand a chance descending a steep 5 mile mountain grade. From taking street cars (sports sedans mostly) on tracks, I know it usually takes a number of fast laps before experiencing brake problems, which usually announce themselves with fade and/or smell.

When Edmunds.com road-tested my car (a 2002 Mopar), they mentioned "...the best 60-0 mph braking came on the third run, letting us know they worked better with a little heat in them." (Link below.) And the Dec. 1992 Road & Track issue mentions that that year's Honda Accord required 22 lbs foot effort for a 0.5g (from around 60 mph) stop on both the first and sixth tries -- in other words, the Accord experienced no measurable brake fade in six consecutive hard stops from freeway speeds. For the record, most other cars in R&T do require additional foot effort, meaning some fade. But it requires several consecutive high-speed stops to experience such heat-related fade.

In short, I believe all this advice is accurate, but not necessarily applicable to "Average Joe" in any single hard braking event he may experience on the street, so there's no need to worry about creeping, etc. But tow a heavy trailer, tackle a long mountain grade, make several consecutive hard stops from high speed, or take your car to the track, and this stuff becomes relavant. By the way, it's common practice for sports car racers to leave the parking brake off after a track event, and simply leave the car parked in gear. Any pad against a section of hot rotor can change the temp in that rotor spot, leading to warping.
http://www.edmunds.com/reviews/roadtests/roadtest/49242/page001.html
 
Would spraying water directly at the wheels cause the brake rotors to warp? Or thru a car wash? Or driving thru a large puddle of water?
 
I have not had any problems. I think poor quality pads and or hard city driving are the main causes of rotor warping. I took the dust shields off of my disk brakes. This allows more air to get to them but also lets water spray on them. The only time I have warped rotors is when a caliper piston stuck. This actually melted the caliper boot too.

Most of my miles are on the highway but I also will race the car on occasion, 4-5 lap road courses. The brakes for sure get good and hot.
Biggest problem is old brake fluid in most road racing applications.
 
OK, so I should tear up my honored degree in heat transfer and mechanical design, start ignoring my owner's manual, start applying rules for performance pads that I don't have, tell my mechanic he lies about my rotor life, and trade down my car because I don't deserve to own an S2000--mostly because I drive reasonably and lawfully.
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Anything else?
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quote:

Originally posted by geeeman:
I say NO NO NO! to everything you've just said...

Uneven cooling causes brake warping; if you insist on pressing a super-heated brake pad against one part of the rotor, it will cause just a part of the rotor to remain very hot as the rest cools slowly. The entire rotor is losing heat to the air around it...your insulating comment is false. Furthermore, holding the pad against the rotor may cause uneven deposits of pad material at that point on the rotor, which can cause brake "judder" as well.

Creeping is good...standing on the pedal after a hard stop is VERY! bad...

PS - go to any performance brake pad manufacturers web site, and all will have detailed instructions on how to "bed-in" brake pads. Driving gently for the first x many miles is NOT! the way to do it, regardless of what the owners manual says. CONTROLLED heating and cooling, by using a series of firm stops to generate heat and brake pad film transfer, is the correct way of doing it...

PSS- Going a 100 000 miles on front pads only means the pads themselves are WAY! to hard. And if the pad is not wearing, the ROTOR! is. Honda pads are for the most part mediocre anyway. Adequate for everyday driving, but not great for spirited driving where the brakes get really hot.

And...if you're not heating up an S2000's brakes once in a while, you might as well be driving a Civic...!

grin.gif




[ December 29, 2003, 08:26 AM: Message edited by: S2000driver ]
 
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