stock market

Anybody plan on buying some Coinbase (COIN) in the near future ?

I do, just a little.
Makes about as much semse

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Market correction question:
Amongst all the current speculation, some think that the economy might "thread the needle" and avert the natural market correction cycle of our economic system. Any thoughts or opinions? Of course it's all speculation, but I am weighing ideas/options as I approach 1 to 2 years
It doesn’t work that way

You have a choice

Market correction

or

inflation

the only time this doesn’t happen is if the “gains” stay in a vault and are never used

the real size of our output has shrunk so it’s only a matter of time

what’s worse is we might get stagflation where things inflate while retracting
In fact our housing market as it stands is 100% an indicator of stagflation, my guess we are already stagflating we just aren’t noticing the price increases combined with scarcity and overall reduced supply and demand in units for most products
 
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I'm confused because the recessions of '81 and '08 (most others ?) were financial market induced and took years for the market (my portfolio) to recover. This time the market recovery took a few months.

Are we not going to have a years-long market correction? I understand that the economy and stock market don't correlate with each other. Is the somewhat self-induced recession to counter the pandemic avoiding a huge market correction, maybe skip a cycle?

FYI, I admit to being very naive about economics.
 
Nothing wrong with TSLA only being up 4.5% for the year. We are only 1/4 of the way through 2021.
I suspect a rise in shares after the Q1 earnings report that will be issued on Monday 4/26. By all estimates it will be another record quarter.
Wall Street analysts who have a track record of being fairly accurate have a target price in the high $1000 range by the end of the year.
I think that is very possible. And I think a price of $4000 by 2025 has a good chance of occurring as well.
But then again 3 years is a long time and all kinds of world events can affect the market. I sure wouldn't put all my eggs in a TSLA basket. Getting greedy is how you get stung, unless you get very lucky.
Always good to hear from an optimist. With the most recent close, Tesla is up about 3.3% for the year. S&P 500 is up 11.8% for the year.

As for when the recession is going to happen, that's above my pay grade. I rode out the 2000 collapse, the 2008 collapse and the 2020 pull back. I suppose you could say I'm up 18.4% from 2020 and another 11.8 percent so far this year. So maybe I'll start really worrying if the market drops more than 20-30%. Then I would have been better staying in cash last year. For me, it's easier to stay fully invested, to a certain extent, I'm almost playing with house money so it won't bother me as much if there was a pull back. But I suppose it makes it really hard to get into it with real hard earned cash. I probably don't need the cash for another 10+ years and we seem to average a pull back every 10 years, the other 9 years are up. So as long as you can ride it for 10+ years, probably best to stay fully invested. Including the down years, you're probably averaging about 11% without the 2008 numbers in there, the last 10 years is more like averaging 14%. a year.
 
I'm confused because the recessions of '81 and '08 (most others ?) were financial market induced and took years for the market (my portfolio) to recover. This time the market recovery took a few months.

Are we not going to have a years-long market correction? I understand that the economy and stock market don't correlate with each other. Is the somewhat self-induced recession to counter the pandemic avoiding a huge market correction, maybe skip a cycle?

FYI, I admit to being very naive about economics.


The recession of 81 was part of and the tail end of the secular bear market that ran from 1966-1982. That was a very difficult period for a lot of people especially throughout the 1970’s. The biggest problem was stagflation. We had high unemployment rates ( generally well underreported) along with inflation and high interest rates.

President Reagan’s tax cut plan was the spur for the bull market that ensued afterwards.
 
The S&P is up 11.8% for the year which is great. TSLA has been extremely volatile and is up 3.3% at the moment.
But which fund has the greatest chance of having a marked increase by 12/31/21 ?
I hope the S&P is up at least 10% by that time. But I think the odds of TSLA exceeding $1000 per share by 12/31/21 are very good.
I'm not sure exactly what the percentage gain would be vs. what it was on 01/01/21 but doing the math in my head tells me it will be a heck of a lot more than 10 or 15%.

But it is always prudent to diversify. And even if the so called housing bubble bursts, paying a mortgage off early or not having one at all is never a bad decision when it comes to how you spend your money and how secure you will be when the market is on a roller coaster.
 
When Tesla factory in Texas opens up we will see much more of them on the road.

I really want the Tesla truck that looks like the F-117 Nighthawk. 👍
 
I'm confused because the recessions of '81 and '08 (most others ?) were financial market induced and took years for the market (my portfolio) to recover. This time the market recovery took a few months.

Are we not going to have a years-long market correction? I understand that the economy and stock market don't correlate with each other. Is the somewhat self-induced recession to counter the pandemic avoiding a huge market correction, maybe skip a cycle?

FYI, I admit to being very naive about economics.

In those times (1980’s) there wasn’t huge government money dumped in, people mostly had non-stock investment vehicles like pensions and interest was over 10% making stocks less meaningful to individuals, unemployment compensation was much more difficult to receive, nobody unemployed had health insurance or car insurance. For all practical purposes social security disability and workmen’s comp didn’t exist (very high penalty to admission)
Stocks actually trended the economy.
Different world

That said with big gov money dumped in it could result in “recovered losses” being worth less than if we just took the loss.

We are in unprecedented times where the government cash doesn’t create the same level of inflation because it’s dumping lopsidedly into real estate and bank accounts without going through a spending cycle onto “purchases” and is primarily fulfill debt and obligations which delays its effect.

stocks are divorced from the economy (have been for over a decade)
These days the health of a company can easily trend up or down fully independent of its underlying health.
Gains and losses are based on memes and humor, computers do most of the trading with minimal interaction from a human following microtransactions skimming small variances in payout to institutional investors.
For the most part disposable income is dumped into stocks since there is no longer another valid place to put it and oddly that controls inflation since the cash never goes out to spend.

god only knows where this will lead


2008, was a depression not a normal recession, our fundamental error was removing glass segal and a nearly identical (and very predictable) series of events occurred where investors would make their books look good while bankrupting the entity they work for, lots of fake/borrowed money compounding the failure. What was different between 1930 and 2008 was the amount of government involvement, sadly the issues in 2008 were not fully corrected leaving us open to another similar failure and due to the higher gate of entry the failure would be less recoverable since the poor cannot be involved in the recovery.

Only solution is to reinstate glass segal and enforce with imprisonments to bad actors but few are interested in correcting the root of the problem
 
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Thanks gentlemen. My limited economics knowledge goes back to the early 1970's and remembering my high school econ teacher stating that cyclic recessions and market corrections/adjustment (bad times) were a normal and necessary part of our economy. It seems that each recession has a different "perfect storm" that we allowed to happen and trigger it.

"god only knows where this will lead" is probably the lesson I should take away from all this, LOL.
 
Thanks gentlemen. My limited economics knowledge goes back to the early 1970's and remembering my high school econ teacher stating that cyclic recessions and market corrections/adjustment (bad times) were a normal and necessary part of our economy. It seems that each recession has a different "perfect storm" that we allowed to happen and trigger it.

"god only knows where this will lead" is probably the lesson I should take away from all this, LOL.

Always look for opportunities even during down times. During tough times new trends and ideas sprout up. Case in point, stocks like Zoom that took off as video conferencing took hold during the virus outbreak.

Another thing to ponder is to check out underlying industries of hot sectors. Tesla gets a lot of media coverage so everyone jumps into their stock. Who will make batteries for electric cars? Who makes the charger stations? Sometimes this indirect investment does better than the headline one. Of course the infrastructure for electric vehicles will have to be built. Check out the companies that do that kind of work.
 
Don’t forget current administration is pro EV and that helps in the long run, especially if they want more charging stations across the USA.

Lots of EV growth in the next 10 years.
 
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The S&P is up 11.8% for the year which is great. TSLA has been extremely volatile and is up 3.3% at the moment.
But which fund has the greatest chance of having a marked increase by 12/31/21 ?
I hope the S&P is up at least 10% by that time. But I think the odds of TSLA exceeding $1000 per share by 12/31/21 are very good.
I'm not sure exactly what the percentage gain would be vs. what it was on 01/01/21 but doing the math in my head tells me it will be a heck of a lot more than 10 or 15%.

But it is always prudent to diversify. And even if the so called housing bubble bursts, paying a mortgage off early or not having one at all is never a bad decision when it comes to how you spend your money and how secure you will be when the market is on a roller coaster.
You'll have to give more specific reasons why you think Tesla will be up besides the greater fool theory. It already had a huge run up based on nothing but speculation. That of course can continue so it can go either way. On the other hand I don't see the S&P 500 collapsing unless the entire economy collapses and that's no looking likely right now as we come out of this pandemic. Of course the stock market is forward looking by about 6 months so if projections change for the recovery, I could see it dropping. Tesla speculation basically has no basis and projecting higher prices is based on nothing. Fundamentally they might be doing ok, but not enough to justify the valuation. Just look to what former high flying stocks have done in the past. AOL, Microsoft, Oracle, Cisco, Intel, AMD, etc. eventually they hit a plateau and sometimes like AOL, head in the other direction.
 
Wolf,

Besides FXAIX, what other funds do you put money in ?
I used to have Berkshire Hathaway but it under performed the S&P 500 for a few years so got rid of it a while back. It's probably a good defensive holding now if you think the market is going to tank, it will probably hold its value better but doesn't have as much upside as it doesn't have a heavy tech weighing. I also have Janus 40 (JACTX) and Fidelity Contrafund (FCNTX). Those are more like Nasdaq funds as they're tech heavy and have done better than the S&P 500 some years. I used to have 5-6 funds, but I've distilled it down to those 3 these days as I got rid of the underperformers like bonds.
 
You'll have to give more specific reasons why you think Tesla will be up besides the greater fool theory.
It's not about Tesla; it's about the world now and going forward. According to Morgan Stanley:
We believe Tesla sees itself (and many in the market see Tesla) as the apex player during the most formative phase of the industrialization of sustainable propulsion and transition off fossil fuels.

Morgan Stanley

“Tesla has zero internal combustion entanglement and is in a position to, you know, attract capital and talent perhaps more efficiently… Sure, there’s lots of legacy companies, they’re all, if you listen to what they’re saying, they all sound like they’re Tesla. And in many ways, they’re frankly obsessed with Tesla. If you listen to 30 seconds of Volkswagen of GM, you’d think they didn’t sell any internal combustion cars. It turns out they sell 98%,” the Morgan Stanley analyst said.

Tesla is best positioned to participate significantly in the growth of China EV market.
What is Tesla about today and for the rest of the year? Expansion. Products and factories.
They may even build a 2nd factory in China.

The better question is, in my mind, what can stop Tesla?
The answer is, they had better not lose Elon.
 
I have my retirement funds in several accounts, most of them Fortune 500 based. My largest holdings money wise are TSLA but that is more luck than by design. I don't think the Fortune 500 group will collapse and a 10% gain this year would be nothing to sneeze at.

I didn't mention any greater fool theory. I just agree with experts like Ron Baron and Kathy Wood who study these things and do so in an entirely different way regarding TSLA which is appropriate. And they have a good record for accuracy. TSLA is on its way to being a money making machine with cash coming in not only from vehicle sales, but from many other categories. Most if not all of which will be high profit margin categories.

Tesla speculation basically has no basis and projecting higher prices is based on nothing ?
Umm... certainly there has been quite a bit of speculation, and that has contributed to the volatility. But I think it is quite an exaggeration to say there was no basis for it and the projections for higher stock prices are based on nothing.

Several more factories around the world will come on line within the next 18 months. Add their software licensing fees, energy products, insurance and possible battery sales to other makers who lack the ability to produce competitive batteries and we'll see whereTSLA's valuation is. Some of the speculation is due to the old "what would you rather have, a fast nickel or a slow dime" question. I'll take the slow dime, others will be happy with that fast nickel.
 
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I have my retirement funds in several accounts, most of them Fortune 500 based. My largest holdings money wise are TSLA but that is more luck than by design. I don't think the Fortune 500 group will collapse and a 10% gain this year would be nothing to sneeze at.

I didn't mention any greater fool theory. I just agree with experts like Ron Baron and Kathy Wood who study these things and do so in an entirely different way regarding TSLA which is appropriate. And they have a good record for accuracy. TSLA is on its way to being a money making machine with cash coming in not only from vehicle sales, but from many other categories. Most if not all of which will be high profit margin categories.

Tesla speculation basically has no basis and projecting higher prices is based on nothing ?
Umm... certainly there has been quite a bit of speculation, and that has contributed to the volatility. But I think it is quite an exaggeration to say there was no basis for it and the projections for higher stock prices are based on nothing.

Several more factories around the world will come on line within the next 18 months. Add their software licensing fees, energy products, insurance and possible battery sales to other makers who lack the ability to produce competitive batteries and we'll see whereTSLA's valuation is. Some of the speculation is due to the old "what would you rather have, a fast nickel or a slow dime" question. I'll take the slow dime, others will be happy with that fast nickel.
When I say based on nothing, I mean in relation to the PE ratio. I think it's at 1156 now, it varies depending on the price. It has a market cap of 723 billion. Apple has a market cap of 2.24 trillion and has a 36 PE ratio. Google is at 1.554 trillion and has a PE of about 40. Amazon is at 1.7 trillion and a PE of 80. Microsoft 1.966 and a PE of 39. Facebook 860 billion, PE 30. Walmart 393 billion market cap, PE of 30.

Based on PE ratios and market caps, do you really think it makes sense that this stock has any additional chance of doubling or tripling in the future? That 5x run up is way in the past.

https://finance.yahoo.com/quote/TSLA/
 
I expect the PE ratio and Market Cap figures for TSLA to change over time and it may double in value a lot faster than those figures would change to fit into accepted standards of measuring stock values.
As far as tripling or even going as high as some analysts like Ark Invest says have a 25% chance of reaching $4000 by 2025, yes TSLA's overall numbers will need to look more conventional.

I will be quite pleased if TSLA shares are in the $1200 range by the end of 2022 and I think that is entirely possible.
 
I expect the PE ratio and Market Cap figures for TSLA to change over time and it may double in value a lot faster than those figures would change to fit into accepted standards of measuring stock values.
As far as tripling or even going as high as some analysts like Ark Invest says have a 25% chance of reaching $4000 by 2025, yes TSLA's overall numbers will need to look more conventional.

I will be quite pleased if TSLA shares are in the $1200 range by the end of 2022 and I think that is entirely possible.
To even have some sort of conventional PE ratio, you'd have to have a 10x growth in earnings just to bring the PE down to 110. Maybe 20x if you want to somewhat conventional at 55 or 30x if you want a 38 PE. Lots of their income in the last quarter came from bitcoins and credits that they sold. Not on massive profits on their cars.
 
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