Steering = poo after ball joint replacement + alig

[gathermewool]

I replaced BJ's with new Moogs. I had the local Subie dealership align, and this is what I got:
Front Left/Front Right

Camber: -0.6/-0.1
Caster: 3.0/2.8
Toe: -0.01/0.00
SAI: 13.8/14.8
Incl Ang: 13.3/14.7

Front

Cross Camber: -0.04
Cross Caster: 0.2
Total Toe: -0.01

Rear Left/Rear Right

Camber: -0.9/-1.4
Toe: 0.11/0.03

Rear

Total Toe: 0.14
Thrust Angle: 0.04

When I replaced the struts and tires a couple of years ago I had the tire place do my alignment. Felt fantastic.

When I replaced my tie rods 6 months ago I had the local subie dealership do the alignment for me. Felt some what vague, and not nearly as good as the tire place alignment, but not different enough for me to take it back.

The most recent alignment was done at the same local subie dealership, and the handling is terrible. Before alignment: after exiting a turn, the steering wheel would self-adjust to center - I would literally loosen my hand while the wheel straightened out and regrip when it was centered. After alignment: the wheel stays at the position and requires a little bit of coaxing to re-center. On the highway the center feels very vague and some what hard to control.

Do you guys see anything gross/obvious? Could the ball joints have anything to do with it? Thanks for the help

 

[soldierman]

Sounds to me like you received one ball joint that's "too tight" or was possibly damaged being installed. I've driven some super duty fords after putting new ball joints in with a press and done carefully. I'm almost sure I didn't goof one up yet you could tell the steering effort was too high. That completely kills the purpose of caster. When driving one of these your constantly fighting to find straight ahead. You can turn the wheel little by little and no steering movement is made, just a build up of torque then bam it darts the opposite direction. This is probably exaggerated from your car. But the wheel not self centering with 3 degrees of caster is a sure sign something is binding. You can knock the tie rods loose from each side and with the front end off the ground pivot each spindle through its steering travel and see which is causing the drag. I doubt its both. One should, and likely is much easier than the other.

 

[gathermewool]

thanks for the quick reply. I'll look into it and report back.

 

[UNC017]

If it is not a mechanical binding issue as suggested, then it sounds like inadequate caster. I don't know the caster specs for a Subie, so I don't know if those numbers are in range or not. In general, the spec for caster on a car with power steering is "as much as you can possibly get without throwing another parameter out of spec." How much do you trust the alignment place? I swear some places just write random numbers in the report and don't actually check anything but toe and camber.

 

[gathermewool]

Question: Will the connection eventually wear until it's sufficiently loose - kinda like an over-tightened bushing - or should I take care of this immediately. I'm working 12+ hours on the back shift for the rest of this week so I won't be able to get to the shop...

 

[ARCOgraphite]

Having zero front toe may be an issue; strut front ends are very sensitive to toe. Also, most racks have not been calibrated and the readings are WAY off. I Only found one good alignment shop out of 50 around here and its a Nissan dealer that cals the rack every 6 months - as required by Nissan. Also thats a TON of caster for strut car - but most likely not adjustable without a correction kit.

 

[gathermewool]

I spoke with a local mech I trust, and he said, "I could be wrong, but in 35 years I've never seen an issue with over-tightened ball joints."

One thing I fogot to add is that after the BJ replacement I've noticed a constant, repetative scraping sound. It sounds like, and may be, the dust shield scraping against the rotor. The sound does not go away when brakes are applied.

As for the alignment, the subaru service guy said to bring it in and they'll toe it in. This is what's causing the issues according to him

 

[mechtech2]

The ball joints seem to be tight. It can happen.
Drive it a bit more and see if she loosens up.
Your alignment settings are almost too good to be true.
Makes me wonder.

 

[gathermewool]

I usually stay away from dealerships, but the guys here are really cool, communicative and trustworthy as far as I can tell.

FWIW, when I first asked about alignments he said their guy is really good, has been doing them for a while.

My plan is to have the dealer toe it in a bit, and if that doesn't work I'll check the BJ's while I try to figure out what the scraping noise is

 

[97f150]

I recently changed the BJs on my Ram 1500. The steering felt like poo right after, as well as after the alignment. I have since driven 1100 or so miles and the steering has gotten better. Not exactly where it should be, or was before, but 80% better.

In a thread I started on BITOG, asking whether or not I should have it aligned as I was planning on changing rack as well, someone mentioned that BJs settle? And it may be worth letting them settle a bit before alignment. Maybe that is what is taking place here? I have noticed the same thing in previous BJ replacements as well, the steering getting better as vehicle is driven.

 

[Jim_Truett]

I have had tight ball joints and tight outer cv joints on new axles cause this exact issue more times than I care to count. It will most likely loosen up after a few thousand miles.

 

[gathermewool]

Would you guys advise against going back to the dealer to have them toe it in a bit? If what you're saying is true, how would the toed-in alignment affect driving? Also, if the BJ's don't "settle" in a few kmiles, I think it would be hard to try then for a free toe-in from the dealer. I'll talk again with the service guy I know to see if he'll toe it in in a few thou. for free if they don't settle just to CMA.

Thanks again for all the replies!

 

[swalve]

From what I've read, front wheel drive cars like just a little bit of toe in. I guess because when you punch it, the wheels tend to splay outwards a little bit, and a little toe in stops it from going toe out. Which is uncomfortable.

I was just messing with the same thing on my Grand Prix. I aligned it straight on, and I didn't like it. Lots of wander and torque steer. About an eighth of a turn in seems about right.

What I've read is that too much toe in makes the car a little too tight, in that any adjustment of the wheel makes the car dive in that direction. Good, I guess, if you are a racer and want a little bit of "edge" on turns. Where toe out makes the car wander and have a wide "dead zone" in the middle of the wheel. Either way, it's a lot of work to make it track straight.

To me, the fact that the car seems to have scoliosis (none of those readings are balanced from side to side) is going to cause problems. Either their machine is broken, or your car has some ball joint issues. Since all the parts wear "in concert" with each other, you don't really notice any huge issues. Until you replace one of the parts, and the rest are that much more sloppy.

 

[mechtech2]

Rear wheel drive likes front toe in. The wheels will splay out under dynamic load to zero.
Front wheel drive cars have used all sorts of toe in settings.
But modern ones like a bit of toe out or zero [front]. And this makes sense. When cruising, power is applied and the wheels are going to toe in a bit, hopefully to zero.
A bit of toe in on the rear wheels of FWD cars is good - it's what you want.

 

[Eddie]

If the joint is indead damaged it may smooth out but, may also have a short life.

 

[ARCOgraphite]

After having struts fully extended you can get n2 gas in the strut oil and they take a while (sometimes weeks) to settle down. Until the FE is settled in, any alignment will be erroneous. Make sure the coil spring pightail is in the seat properly - there is usually a pigtail nest.
-
Never had a "tight" ball joint - maybe a dry one - was it fully sealed and prelubed or is there a small hex nut to be removed so you can put in a Zerk for lubing?

 

[swalve]

Originally Posted By: mechtech2
Rear wheel drive likes front toe in. The wheels will splay out under dynamic load to zero.
Front wheel drive cars have used all sorts of toe in settings.
But modern ones like a bit of toe out or zero [front]. And this makes sense. When cruising, power is applied and the wheels are going to toe in a bit, hopefully to zero.
A bit of toe in on the rear wheels of FWD cars is good - it's what you want.


You know, I never thought about it- what is the reason the wheels splay in or out under load?

 

[ARCOgraphite]

front or rear mounted steering rack and angle to direction of travel ... and manifold other factors.

 

[gathermewool]

Moog - fully sealed

 

[mechtech2]

When a car is moving, the toe changes [dynamic load]. This is what the initial static settings are trying to get right.
The slight movement of the rubber/urethane suspension busings allows movement.
This is why the rear splays out on front wheel drive cars.