State Farm sues Tesla for fire damaged home

[PandaBear]

Required to be made safely is not nonsense. Lessens fire risks versus not required to be made safely.
“Space heater catches fires all the time” So one space heater is catching on fire multiple times? Or the heater is catching fires like in a baseball mitt? “EV battery fire is very rare, as of now insurance company think the. ” So there is one insurance company who is thinking? Since going to school was brought up before, American schools don’t teach that version of English.

Let's get to the point here: every product on the market is "required to be made safe". No body will disagree with it.

Space heaters are required to be made safe, they still are a major fire source because there are so many out there and therefore many are defective.

EVs are the same, they just don't intentionally design them to be unsafe and ignore them. So far all of the failures are due to defects, and are recalled.

I'm sorry my English insulted you, but that doesn't change the K12 system in the US does not teach the difference between possibility and probability, and many people would think EV catches fire more than a gasoline car or space heaters.

 

[brianl703]

many people would think EV catches fire more than a gasoline car or space heaters.

I'm just gonna leave this here:



Forensic Files episode "Plastic Fire".

There's more than enough energy in a car battery to set a car on fire.

 

[PandaBear]

I'm just gonna leave this here:



Forensic Files episode "Plastic Fire".

There's more than enough energy in a car battery to set a car on fire.

I'm sure. It is always a trade off between what the customers want vs whether it is worth the risk.

240V AC? check
Kitchen fire from cooking? check
EV battery due to defect? check
Living next to the forest? check
Worn out furnace? check

The question is, how many of them do you want people not to buy or how many would you refuse to insure before your customers would leave you. Most people are ok with these "risky items" and quality of life stuff inside their houses, so they have to allow that.

Smoking is also allowed, despite bad for your health, so they split up the insurance pool and charge extra.

 

[Job]

Let's get to the point here: every product on the market is "required to be made safe". No body will disagree with it.

Space heaters are required to be made safe, they still are a major fire source because there are so many out there and therefore many are defective.

EVs are the same, they just don't intentionally design them to be unsafe and ignore them. So far all of the failures are due to defects, and are recalled.

I'm sorry my English insulted you, but that doesn't change the K12 system in the US does not teach the difference between possibility and probability, and many people would think EV catches fire more than a gasoline car or space heaters.

I wasn’t insulted and shouldn’t have gone there. My father, born in the USA in 1912, only spoke Czech when he started in school. The people used their old country language at home, very common. Since the Chicago neighborhood was largely Czech, the small kids could be out there speaking Czech and everyone understood everyone.
My annoyance, not insult, was you generalizing about the American school system. Not true, and the two words considered are related. Possibility versus probability. It can be said there is a 90% possibility something happens, or a 90% probability. Tell someone that and most will understand it to be exactly the same thing. Maybe you are thinking possibility means only one outcome. There is a possibility the sun will explode. That’s not how I see the only use of the word.

 

[PandaBear]

I wasn’t insulted and shouldn’t have gone there. My father, born in the USA in 1912, only spoke Czech when he started in school. The people used their old country language at home, very common. Since the Chicago neighborhood was largely Czech, the small kids could be out there speaking Czech and everyone understood everyone.
My annoyance, not insult, was you generalizing about the American school system. Not true, and the two words considered are related. Possibility versus probability. It can be said there is a 90% possibility something happens, or a 90% probability. Tell someone that and most will understand it to be exactly the same thing. Maybe you are thinking possibility means only one outcome. There is a possibility the sun will explode. That’s not how I see the only use of the word.

I finished my high school here, and went to BS and MS here obviously. There is a mathematical difference between possibility and probability, and how it impact the result of many engineering decisions. This is taught in the junior year of college, and many of the science cannot be done without using statistics because a lot of the underlying physics calculation are hard to calculate without it.

As you mentioned "It can be said there is a 90% possibility or 90% probability", it shouldn't be used like that because possibility means it may or may not happen but probable means the changes of it happening is such and such.

It is a human psychology thing, we all think of risk and try to avoid all risks, but we do not know what is the trade off and what are we getting in return. Buying lottery ticket is a great example, gambling is a great example. Until we have a large sample size we won't know the probability, but we know something is possible based on science and logics, it is true or false, yes or not, possible or impossible.

Example:

1) It is impossible to freeze an mammal then thaw it without killing it. Nothing to argue about here.
2) It is possible the flight I am getting on today will crash and I will die (very low probability but yes it is possible).
3) It is possible my lottery ticket will win me 10M today (possible but very low probability).
4) The probability of an EV catching on fire is low but it is not impossible.
5) The probability of a California house catching on fire is way higher the same house in Florida due to humidity and wild fire risk
6) The probability of a California house catching on fire this year is lower than 1%, because the premium I pay is less than 1% of the rebuild cost and insurance companies are not charity.
7) The probability of a house being burnt down by wild fire is way higher than EV fire in the garage based on how insurance companies respond to these claims.


I hope my examples tell you what I think about this. You may disagree, but so far the EV fires from batteries not being hit in an accident are likely due to design and manufacturing defects, and the sample sizes proved this so far, and those batteries are recalled and replaced.



My complain is that statistics is so important it should be included in our math education in high school, not waiting till college, not only for some majors but not others. Everyone should know this because it makes and breaks people's life.

 

[ZeeOSix]

There is technically a difference.

https://grammarist.com/usage/possibility-vs-probability/

 

[Job]

There is technically a difference.

https://grammarist.com/usage/possibility-vs-probability/

Pretty much what I said, and I guess it is your freedom to get involved with others discussions as you feel the need. Except they seem to think there is a bias towards probability means a lot, and a bias towards possibility means a little. Like I mentioned to PB. Of course that isn’t necessarily the case. There can be .01% probability or very little probability, and .01% possibility or very little possibility. Good you looked it up to learn something by “running to the internet.” America, what a great country to have all this freedom.

 

[Job]

I finished my high school here, and went to BS and MS here obviously. There is a mathematical difference between possibility and probability, and how it impact the result of many engineering decisions. This is taught in the junior year of college, and many of the science cannot be done without using statistics because a lot of the underlying physics calculation are hard to calculate without it.

As you mentioned "It can be said there is a 90% possibility or 90% probability", it shouldn't be used like that because possibility means it may or may not happen but probable means the changes of it happening is such and such.

It is a human psychology thing, we all think of risk and try to avoid all risks, but we do not know what is the trade off and what are we getting in return. Buying lottery ticket is a great example, gambling is a great example. Until we have a large sample size we won't know the probability, but we know something is possible based on science and logics, it is true or false, yes or not, possible or impossible.

Example:

1) It is impossible to freeze an mammal then thaw it without killing it. Nothing to argue about here.
2) It is possible the flight I am getting on today will crash and I will die (very low probability but yes it is possible).
3) It is possible my lottery ticket will win me 10M today (possible but very low probability).
4) The probability of an EV catching on fire is low but it is not impossible.
5) The probability of a California house catching on fire is way higher the same house in Florida due to humidity and wild fire risk
6) The probability of a California house catching on fire this year is lower than 1%, because the premium I pay is less than 1% of the rebuild cost and insurance companies are not charity.
7) The probability of a house being burnt down by wild fire is way higher than EV fire in the garage based on how insurance companies respond to these claims.


I hope my examples tell you what I think about this. You may disagree, but so far the EV fires from batteries not being hit in an accident are likely due to design and manufacturing defects, and the sample sizes proved this so far, and those batteries are recalled and replaced.



My complain is that statistics is so important it should be included in our math education in high school, not waiting till college, not only for some majors but not others. Everyone should know this because it makes and breaks people's life.

It depends on the students level. Students are put into their ability level. This was my daughters high school. So it is not accurate to say in K-12, in America, statistics isn’t taught. You know well how students flock to America from all over the world to go to the schools. They will pay anything to buy or rent a house to get in public schools they think are best.

https://gunn.pausd.org/learning/mathematics

 

[ZeeOSix]

Pretty much what I said, and I guess it is your freedom to get involved with others discussions as you feel the need. Except they seem to think there is a bias towards probability means a lot, and a bias towards possibility means a little. Like I mentioned to PB. Of course that isn’t necessarily the case. There can be .01% probability or very little probability, and .01% possibility or very little possibility. Good you looked it up to learn something by “running to the internet.” America, what a great country to have all this freedom.

Not really what you said ... there is a distinct difference. "Possibility" doesn't put a number on it, but "probability" does. Not the same thing when correctly defined.

And yes ... I have freedom to get involved in any discussion I want on this chat board ... just like everyone else.

Maybe you should do more learning on the internet before you claim something.

Do you know the difference between precision and accuracy?

 

[PandaBear]

It depends on the students level. Students are put into their ability level. This was my daughters high school. So it is not accurate to say in K-12, in America, statistics isn’t taught. You know well how students flock to America from all over the world to go to the schools. They will pay anything to buy or rent a house to get in public schools they think are best.

https://gunn.pausd.org/learning/mathematics

Gunn is a very advanced high school (and a reputation of 4-5x the suicide rate of other "normal" schools). I'm sure you know what you are getting into and this is not a typical school like the normal one in the US. AP Statistic must be new, and BTW, AP is pretty much a college level course taught in high school and I'm sure you know already.

Which means, it isn't really a typical high school curriculum like Algerbra. Which also means most US HS students won't be taking it.

Does your kid go to Gunn? Do they still offer those super early courses and extended courses after school? I heard they run all the way till 11pm sometimes.

 

[Job]

Gunn is a very advanced high school (and a reputation of 4-5x the suicide rate of other "normal" schools). I'm sure you know what you are getting into and this is not a typical school like the normal one in the US. AP Statistic must be new, and BTW, AP is pretty much a college level course taught in high school and I'm sure you know already.

Which means, it isn't really a typical high school curriculum like Algerbra. Which also means most US HS students won't be taking it.

Does your kid go to Gunn? Do they still offer those super early courses and extended courses after school? I heard they run all the way till 11pm sometimes.

My“kid” graduated from Gunn a long time ago. All honors classes and on a sports team. I went to the same school district before Gunn existed. In the real unadvertised population of Gunn there are all levels of students. Bottom line is yes “statistics” is taught in k-12. No qualifiers added.
I put the same value on the struggling student and the over achiever. It’s ok not to be a doctor, scientist, or supreme court justice. I find the hard driving competitive parents appalling.
Thinking about word use more, the weather reporter can say 50% probability, 50% possibility, or 50% chance of rain. It is all the same meaning, depending on whatever the person feels like saying. Like I said before you maybe are using the meaning of possibility as almost no chance, like the sun exploding today. There is no such specific limited meaning to the word though imo.

 

[ZeeOSix]

Thinking about word use more, the weather reporter can say 50% probability, 50% possibility, or 50% chance of rain. It is all the same meaning, depending on whatever the person feels like saying.

That's because some people like to make up their own meanings of words instead of actually using the correct defined meanings. Or use the actual word meaning in an incorrect way.

 

[JeffKeryk]

That's because some people like to make up their own meanings of words instead of actually using the correct defined meanings. Or use the actual word meaning in an incorrect way.

I hate to say it, but you got a point there. One a related side note, the most co-opted word is multi-tasking. Drives me crazy, but that's just because I have programmed in languages that can spawn a CPU thread. Don't get me started...

 

[PandaBear]

My“kid” graduated from Gunn a long time ago. All honors classes and on a sports team. I went to the same school district before Gunn existed. In the real unadvertised population of Gunn there are all levels of students. Bottom line is yes “statistics” is taught in k-12. No qualifiers added.
I put the same value on the struggling student and the over achiever. It’s ok not to be a doctor, scientist, or supreme court justice. I find the hard driving competitive parents appalling.
Thinking about word use more, the weather reporter can say 50% probability, 50% possibility, or 50% chance of rain. It is all the same meaning, depending on whatever the person feels like saying. Like I said before you maybe are using the meaning of possibility as almost no chance, like the sun exploding today. There is no such specific limited meaning to the word though imo.

So. Let's not talk about the disagreement on the definition of probability vs possibility. Let's talk about what it means when we have a couple EV fires from battery vs whether it is safe, whether it is safer than other things that also catches your houses on fire, and finally, whether it is a good reason to not allow EVs in your houses or not. No playing with word, no complaining about education or the lack of, just pure comparison between risk and rewards, and what people want.

EV fires from battery so far are manufacturing defects. We don't have a "if you drive it past 30 years it will catch fire" scenario because the battery will be disabled by then due to wearing out. I think you can agree with this, no?

A house next to the forest in California will eventually catch fires because of the wild fire risk, so far some insurance companies have done their math and they think it is not worth staying in California because of that. I think you can agree with this, no?

Smokers will have more health problems and cost more to health insurances, so they have to charge smokers more. This is scientifically proven in large population samples, I think you can also agree to this, no?

Yet we are all talking about EV being dangerous and we are asking "safety guidelines" on EVs, yet we haven't ban smoking. We only charges the smokers more on health insurance cost, I wonder why?

 

[PandaBear]

I hate to say it, but you got a point there. One a related side note, the most co-opted word is multi-tasking. Drives me crazy, but that's just because I have programmed in languages that can spawn a CPU thread. Don't get me started...

There is no such thing as multi-tasking in real life, only task switching. You can decide whether you want to finish one first before you start another, or how often and under what criteria to pause one and do another, pause that and come back, etc.

 

[Job]

So. Let's not talk about the disagreement on the definition of probability vs possibility. Let's talk about what it means when we have a couple EV fires from battery vs whether it is safe, whether it is safer than other things that also catches your houses on fire, and finally, whether it is a good reason to not allow EVs in your houses or not. No playing with word, no complaining about education or the lack of, just pure comparison between risk and rewards, and what people want.

EV fires from battery so far are manufacturing defects. We don't have a "if you drive it past 30 years it will catch fire" scenario because the battery will be disabled by then due to wearing out. I think you can agree with this, no?

A house next to the forest in California will eventually catch fires because of the wild fire risk, so far some insurance companies have done their math and they think it is not worth staying in California because of that. I think you can agree with this, no?

Smokers will have more health problems and cost more to health insurances, so they have to charge smokers more. This is scientifically proven in large population samples, I think you can also agree to this, no?

Yet we are all talking about EV being dangerous and we are asking "safety guidelines" on EVs, yet we haven't ban smoking. We only charges the smokers more on health insurance cost, I wonder why?

Smoking is being banned in situations. My health plan charges the same smoker or not, fat or thin, it’s all the same price. Anyway smoking is like the Tesla driver sitting in the back seat and thinking the car is in charge. Their actions cause the problems. A battery fire in the garage, is the owner at fault?
Tired of talking about it at this point.

 

[PandaBear]

Smoking is being banned in situations. My health plan charges the same smoker or not, fat or thin, it’s all the same price. Anyway smoking is like the Tesla driver sitting in the back seat and thinking the car is in charge. Their actions cause the problems. A battery fire in the garage, is the owner at fault?
Tired of talking about it at this point.

You heard of this thing called freak accident right? People can die in a freak accident and insurance pay for it. Products get recalled all the time due to freak accidents and defects. It does not mean there is fundamental design flaw of the concept.

Building a house next to a wild fire prone forest, that's not a freak accident if the insurance companies dropped you.

 

[ZeeOSix]

My health plan charges the same smoker or not, fat or thin, it’s all the same price.

Apparently they don't know the difference between possibility and probability between smoking and the many health problems caused by smoking. Guess people who don't smoke like paying higher premiums to cover the insurance cost for those who do.

 

[JeffKeryk]

There is no such thing as multi-tasking in real life, only task switching. You can decide whether you want to finish one first before you start another, or how often and under what criteria to pause one and do another, pause that and come back, etc.

Multitasking refers to an Operating System function that allows a single process to be split into 1 or more additional tasks to be executed on separate CPU threads, that come together later in the main process. In programmng, this is known as "spawning a thread".
Multiple threads within a process share the same data space with the main thread and can therefore share information or communicate with each other more easily than if they were separate processes.

The term has been co-opted by people referring to doing several things at once.
Multitasking has also been erroneously used to refer to a computer running more than one program at a time.

Computer Science has a specific definition for the term. An entry level Operating System class speaks to this.

 

[PandaBear]

Multitasking refers to an Operating System function that allows a single process to be split into 1 or more additional tasks to be executed on separate CPU threads, that come together later in the main process. In programmng, this is known as "spawning a thread".
Multiple threads within a process share the same data space with the main thread and can therefore share information or communicate with each other more easily than if they were separate processes.

The term has been co-opted by people referring to doing several things at once.
Multitasking has also been erroneously used to refer to a computer running more than one program at a time.

Computer Science has a specific definition for the term. An entry level Operating System class speaks to this.

No, that's multi-threading or parallel processing. Multi-tasking in OS started long before multi-thread programming.

Multi-tasking in the traditional sense, is let the kernel scheduler task switch between one and another task, thread, process (by saving the processor or core states and load another one in its place). Preemptive one will task switch based on timer or other external event (interrupt) but the non pre-emptive one will only switch when the active task / thread / process get to a point and voluntarily gives up the control.

I am CS major.