State Farm sues Tesla for fire damaged home

[OVERKILL]

I do think eventually we will migrate to a more stable chemistry like LFP, when the range and charging speed problem is stabilized.

IIRC, the problem with LFP is temperature sensitivity. Not sure what the workaround for that is in automotive applications.

Today we are still trying to outdo each other with more range, faster charging, cheaper battery, etc. When they mature and everyone has about the same range and price per range then they will start addressing the problems like durability, safety, etc. Insurance companies by then will mandate certain safety mechanism like coolant and fire suppressant mechanism, or certain chemistry for safety, or else premium increase.

Yes, it's a competitive market but of course these issues weren't present with older, less dense, chemistries. This is very much a lithium-based battery problem and even the FAA has had issues, and subsequently regulations, with lithium batteries.

It's certainly an interesting space to watch, as despite the claims that other techs are emerging, we've seen none of them actually take off yet.

Regarding to grid storage fire, yes that happens in our tech's infancy, but if there's money the problem will be solved. Just like we still have a lot of refinery fires today but we don't just shut down refineries, we still have them around knowing sooner or later they will catch fire, but we cannot live without them.

Grid storage isn't in its infancy though, it's been around for at least 70 years. The traditional means of providing large scale grid storage has been pumped hydro, which of course doesn't catch fire, and has much longer duration. Of course there are logistical and geographic issues with PHS. Battery storage isn't new either, previously lead acid and nickel-based chemistries have been used, uneventfully. So it isn't that the tech is in its infancy, its the use of Lithium-based batteries, just like in cars, cell phones, laptops...etc where fires have also occurred. It's an issue inherent to that technology choice, but that choice is made regardless because of the increased density and other benefits that it offers, despite the potential for thermal runaway drawback.

Refineries aren't really comparable, because they take an extremely dense storage medium (oil) and turn it into other extremely dense mediums. They produce a product for consumption that we use for propulsion, power generation...etc. They are a source of energy. A battery is not a source of energy, it's a temporary medium of storage for energy that has to be produced elsewhere and so unlike a refinery, the ROI is much lower on a battery, where money is primarily made through arbitrage.

 

[JeffKeryk]

Is that for the Tesla only or all cars?

All except the classics.

 

[PandaBear]

My hunch is that building fire codes will eventually change to prohibit garaging EVs with lithium cells and prohibit EV chargers in enclosed spaces. When that happens, home insurance companies will be able to deny many of these claims for EVs burning houses.

Unlikely, they may bin them into different category and charge different premium but banning EV charging would be like banning water heater to reduce flood risk, not a popular one.

 

[DuckRyder]

When a product defect is responsible for a loss the products producer is subrogated just like any other at fault party.

 

[Job]

Certainly owned many vehicles with unsecured floor mats and this could not happen …
There are numerous articles on the Toyota (physical) remedies both short and long term …
Almost all ICE powered vehicles have both a gas pedal and floor mat on the drivers side …
I do think the size of the lawsuit was extreme when already faced with a massive recall …

I owned many vehicles with unsecured floor mats and it happened many times. Especially on the floor hinged accelerator pedal style. It’s something remembered. Grab the mat and pull it back, in panic mode. So many times it happened to me.
I had one of the models in the recall all they did was remove some of the pedal. From 2007 it never unintended accelerated due to a car fault. Never did before the pedal recall either. There was nothing at all wrong with the cars I have seen verified.
In fact, what is the reason most if not all newer cars have floor mat hooks? To keep people from bunching up the mat on the gas pedal. I dont know every newer car, but they have been hooking the mats a long time.

 

[RooflessVW]

The Tesla fires aren’t just a switch or module defect, and the Toyota unintended acceleration was due to owners shuffling loose floor mats over the gas pedal. There was never a defect found with Toyota cars that caused unintended acceleration. A lot of them are still on the road.
It is a big deal about ev battery fires, just like Samsung phone batteries catching on fire. Talking about switches catching on fire is just deflection from the problem.

Floor mats, huh? You bought that lie?

 

[4WD]

I owned many vehicles with unsecured floor mats and it happened many times. Especially on the floor hinged accelerator pedal style. It’s something remembered. Grab the mat and pull it back, in panic mode. So many times it happened to me.
I had one of the models in the recall all they did was remove some of the pedal. From 2007 it never unintended accelerated due to a car fault. Never did before the pedal recall either. There was nothing at all wrong with the cars I have seen verified.
In fact, what is the reason most if not all newer cars have floor mat hooks? To keep people from bunching up the mat on the gas pedal. I dont know every newer car, but they have been hooking the mats a long time.

Doubt you have owned the same vehicles - exactly NONE of mine ever did that …

 

[ZeeOSix]

I had one of the models in the recall all they did was remove some of the pedal. From 2007 it never unintended accelerated due to a car fault. Never did before the pedal recall either. There was nothing at all wrong with the cars I have seen verified.

They also reflashed the ECU so if the brake pedal and accelerator pedal were both pushed at the same time the engine power was cut way back. Pretty much every car manufacturer now has that type of ECU programming in their newer vehicles.

My 2005 Tacoma had hooks on the factory OEM front floor mats.

 

[JeffKeryk]

Years ago my father called me and told me the brakes in his '98 Accord LX were bad; really hard to push and barely slowed the car.
Kinda surprising, because the car was fairly new and those Accords were pretty bullet proof.
I went over and took it for a spin. Sure enough, had to press the brake pedal super hard.

I looked at the master for anything funny; all good. Went down to the pedal to find the floor mat bunched up behind the pedal.
I drilled 2 holes in the factory mat and tie strapped it to the seat brackets.

 

[Kiwi_ME]

... if the brake pedal and accelerator pedal were both pushed at the same time the engine power was cut way back. Pretty much every car manufacturer now has that type of ECU programming in their newer vehicles.

If I recall Toyota was one of the very few electronic gas pedal cars that didn't already have that feature.

Is the Bolt next?

In the end I expect insurance companies are concerned about aggregated risk and there are still very few EV fires in the bigger picture.

By most accounts I've read, the defects in the Bolt cells (and almost certainly the Kona) was down to production shortcuts rather than a fundamental weakness in Li-po technology.

There's a short report out regarding the Bolt defects from an industry analysis company, TechInsights. You can download it /www.techinsights.com/ebook/ebook-chevy-bolt-recall-battery-problems?utm_source=YouTube&utm_medium=Social&utm_content=eBook%3A+Chevy+Bolt+Recall%3A+A+Battery+of+Problems&utm_campaign=2022+-+Q1+-+Automotive%2FBattery%2FTeardown+-+Chevrolet+Bolt+eBook']here[/URL]> using a non-free email address and your "company" name. It's mostly just trying to sell you on their services but does point out the haphazardness and weakness of the pouch cell design compared to the cylindrical type, partly why I think that is one area Tesla chose well.

 

[PandaBear]

Floor mats, huh? You bought that lie?

Over time it is easy to tell, if you haven't seen "unintended acceleration" on cars with hooked floormats in population size of 1M+, you know that's the problem and that solved the problem.

 

[Job]

Floor mats, huh? You bought that lie?

It was free to me.

 

[Job]

Doubt you have owned the same vehicles - exactly NONE of mine ever did that …

The vehicles didn’t push up the mat, I did. There are all sorts of people doing things you don’t.
I never heard of any vehicle fault that caused unintended acceleration on these. Before the pedal cut I never had any problems, or after.

 

[4WD]

The vehicles didn’t push up the mat, I did. There are all sorts of people doing things you don’t.
I never heard of any vehicle fault that caused unintended acceleration on these. Before the pedal cut I never had any problems, or after.

So you are saying this was not a Toyota problem …?

 

[4WD]

Over time it is easy to tell, if you haven't seen "unintended acceleration" on cars with hooked floormats in population size of 1M+, you know that's the problem and that solved the problem.

That was not the only change

 

[Job]

So you are saying this was not a Toyota problem …?

Any evidence the problem was a fault by other than the owners? I have no problem learning. Again, I, me, had no problems before or after pedal cutting and had the car for many years.

 

[4WD]

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
That’s a yes everyone!

 

[PandaBear]

That was not the only change

What else was changed?

 

[4WD]

What else was changed?

https://www.cars.com/articles/toyota-to-add-brake-override-system-on-all-2011-models-1420669113500/

 

[RooflessVW]

What else was changed?

https://www.nytimes.com/2014/03/20/...2-billion-settlement-in-criminal-inquiry.html

There were floor mat problems, but also problems with the actual accelerator pedals and the firmware/software that controls the system has several known faults that Toyota maintains are "unfixable."