Some Good Info About Oil Viscosity and Additives

[jmsjags]

i definitely learned a couple things from reading this article so i thought it might be helpful for some of you.

{removed non site sponsor link}

i found this quote interesting:
Quote:
Some of these organizations, such as the API and ILSAC, have reduced friction modifier amounts in order to extend the life of catalytic converters and reduce pollution. These will increase wear but will be still within the "acceptable wear" range. Because of the increased wear and expense of licensing these oils some companies will not certify for API & ILSAC in order to achieve a higher level of performance. AMSOIL only has 5 motor oils certified for the API & ILSAC for this reason.

 

[d00df00d]

Most of this is good. Some of it (including the quote above) is Amsoil propaganda. Always take this kind of thing with a grain of salt.

 

[demarpaint]

I knew before clicking on the link that it had to be some form of advertisement from an oil company that sells some non certified oils, and had an agenda. Sure enough clicking on the link proved me right.

 

[d00df00d]

Originally Posted By: demarpaint
I knew before clicking on the link that it had to be some form of advertisement from an oil company that sells some non certified oils, and had an agenda.

Ditto.

 

[buster]

Quote:
Some of these organizations, such as the API and ILSAC, have reduced friction modifier amounts in order to extend the life of catalytic converters and reduce pollution. These will increase wear but will be still within the "acceptable wear" range. Because of the increased wear and expense of licensing these oils some companies will not certify for API & ILSAC in order to achieve a higher level of performance. AMSOIL only has 5 motor oils certified for the API & ILSAC for this reason.


This is not true at all. This is Amsoil dealer propaganda. Friction modifiers have improved, they haven't been reduced. And wear performance continues to improve, not decrease. Specifications have become more demanding, not less.

Eneos found that the non certified private labels had worse friction modification, not greater.

 

[jmsjags]

ok i can't post the link to the full article but here are a few quotes from the article that i'd love for someone to comment on:

Quote:
Typically PAO based motor oils use no Viscosity Additives yet pass the multi-grade viscosity requirements as a straight weight! This makes them ideal under a greater temperature range.

Quote:
VI improving additives can shear back under pressure and high heat conditions leaving the motor oil unable to protect the engine properly under high heat conditions and cause sludging. Also there is a limit to how much viscosity improving additives can be added without affecting the rest of the motor oil's chemistry.

are these two quotes true?

 

[Pablo]

Originally Posted By: d00df00d
Most of this is good. Some of it (including the quote above) is Amsoil propaganda. Always take this kind of thing with a grain of salt.


You need to be clear. Amsoil doesn't say this.

 

[Pablo]

Originally Posted By: jmsjags
ok i can't post the link to the full article but here are a few quotes from the article that i'd love for someone to comment on:

Quote:
Typically PAO based motor oils use no Viscosity Additives yet pass the multi-grade viscosity requirements as a straight weight! This makes them ideal under a greater temperature range.

Quote:
VI improving additives can shear back under pressure and high heat conditions leaving the motor oil unable to protect the engine properly under high heat conditions and cause sludging. Also there is a limit to how much viscosity improving additives can be added without affecting the rest of the motor oil's chemistry.

are these two quotes true?


#1 Not true
#2 Sorta true

 

[carwreck]

I don't which parts are of the document are true, but the following is true:

The document is at least 5 years old. The full document can be found word for word on many websites that are sponsored by an "Amsoil direct jobber".
_______________________________________________________________

1999 Oldsmobile GLS

 

[Solarent]

What a lot of people don't understand about the API is that the development of new specifications are produced after extensive consultation with some of the key registered oil marketers. The reduction of phosphorus as an anti wear additive from 1200 ppm to 800ppm with the switch to SN and GF-5 also includes the requirement of phosphorus retention. That means formulators must use more stable phosphorus molecular structures. The industry answered when asked if 800ppm was possible by a resounding yes as long as we develop new additives to do the work. Insert moly, boron, titanium and nanotechnology.

IMO we still have a long way to go, but I wouldn't discount the advances that have been made in the last 5 year or so

 

[demarpaint]

I learned a long time ago EVERYTHING said, or WRITTEN from a company selling a product should be taken with a grain of salt. This includes their test results, articles, or anything else said, or pubilshed by them. This goes for any and all companies that are in business for a profit.

 

[91344George]

Originally Posted By: demarpaint
I learned a long time ago EVERYTHING said, or WRITTEN from a company selling a product should be taken with a grain of salt. This includes their test results, articles, or anything else said, or pubilshed by them. This goes for any and all companies that are in business for a profit.


Indeed.

If studies or test results are linked or posted on a company website if the company does not clearly indicate who conducted the tests and/or they are sponsored or paid for by a company NEVER trust them.

 

[demarpaint]

Originally Posted By: 91344George
Originally Posted By: demarpaint
I learned a long time ago EVERYTHING said, or WRITTEN from a company selling a product should be taken with a grain of salt. This includes their test results, articles, or anything else said, or pubilshed by them. This goes for any and all companies that are in business for a profit.


Indeed.

If studies or test results are linked or posted on a company website if the company does not clearly indicate who conducted the tests and/or they are sponsored or paid for by a company NEVER trust them.



Exactly.. Pay for the test, get the results you want. Or run a test you know your product will pass, then call the other tests worthless.

 

[mechtech2]

Friction modifiers have improved, they haven't been reduced.

No. ZDDP has been reduced.

 

[carwreck]

This site has a study of reducing or modifying ZDDP with Titanium. (But it does have an annoying Microsoft ad that you have to skip)

http://www.allbusiness.com/science-technology/chemistry/11594067-1.html

"Traditionally, wear protection and friction modification by engine oil is provided by zinc dithiophosphate (ZDDP) or other phosphorus compounds.....the industry has been making every effort to find ZDDP-replacement additives that are friendly to catalysts. Toward this goal we have investigated a titanium additive chemistry as a ZDDP replacement."

"CONCLUSION
The titanium additives investigated can improve the antiwear and the antifriction performance in fully formulated engine oil. The best performance resulted from the synergistic effects when the Ti additive in a full formulation with GMO. Although the level of ZDDP was not varied in the engine tests, the formulation used in the four-ball test contained a lower level of ZDDP and displayed improved antiwear and antifriction provided by the addition of the Ti additive.

This is evidence that the reduction of ZDDP and, in turn, phosphorus, may be done by adding a secondary antiwear additive, like the Ti additive, without detrimental effects on wear performance, but further testing must be done. The Ti species are incorporated into the wear tracks and provide the antiwear enhancement through inclusion in the metal/metal oxide structure of the ferrous surface by forming FeTiO^sub 3^. The Ti additive shows good low-temperature antiwear protection and is a possible replacement for molybdenum chemistry."

 

[Capa]

[/quote]

Exactly.. Pay for the test, get the results you want. Or run a test you know your product will pass, then call the other tests worthless. [/quote]

Love the FUD that some boutique oils need to spread. It is all over the Internet and a simple google search will reveal quite a few.

 

[demarpaint]

Originally Posted By: Capa

Exactly.. Pay for the test, get the results you want. Or run a test you know your product will pass, then call the other tests worthless. Love the FUD that some boutique oils need to spread. It is all over the Internet and a simple google search will reveal quite a few.



FUD is a good marketing strategy that some people actually buy into. Others stand clear of companies that use those tactics.

 

[Capa]

FUD certainly works with a lot of people. It's just sad that certain boutique oils feel the need to go that route.

 

[Bayman]

Originally Posted By: Capa
FUD certainly works with a lot of people. It's just sad that certain boutique oils feel the need to go that route.


FUD, who are they?

 

[demarpaint]

I have to hand it to the people at Mobil for never using FUD or bashing their competition to sell product. They are truly a class act when it comes to marketing. That impresses me and gains my respect. When I see [censored] tests, or FUD techniques I buy another product.