Some Filtration Comparisons from the Bench

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Originally Posted By: daman
I think with out looking back RR said the D+ had deeper or longer Medea but i' want to know what the make up of the filter Medea between the two are.

The media is 36% thicker, which might account for a 36% increase in capacity, at most. The rating on the Bosch, from what I've seen, is 29.1g compared to the PureOne's 13g. So something else about the media is getting them an additional 64%.

They specifically reference ISO 4548-12, which substantially limits their marketing wiggle room. So I don't think the difference can be ascribed to marketing. There's a real difference here.
 
Originally Posted By: sbergman27
Originally Posted By: daman
I think with out looking back RR said the D+ had deeper or longer Medea but i' want to know what the make up of the filter Medea between the two are.

The media is 36% thicker, which might account for a 36% increase in capacity, at most. The rating on the Bosch, from what I've seen, is 29.1g compared to the PureOne's 13g. So something else about the media is getting them an additional 64%.

They specifically reference ISO 4548-12, which substantially limits their marketing wiggle room. So I don't think the difference can be ascribed to marketing. There's a real difference here.

And this info came from???? links???
 
Originally Posted By: daman
And this info came from???? links???


RR measured 0.22 and 0.30 thickness, which is where I get the 36%.

The rest comes from:

The Bosch Distance Plus page on the Bosch site

and the PureOne page on the Purolator site.

Note that RR specifically mentions that the pleats are all of the same height and depth, and that the number varies by filter from 57 to 60. It's unclear, but the order of the number listed implies that the D+ is 57 and the P1 is 60.
 
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Originally Posted By: sbergman27
Originally Posted By: daman
And this info came from???? links???


RR measured 0.22 and 0.30 thickness, which is where I get the 36%.

The rest comes from:

The Bosch Distance Plus page on the Bosch site

and the PureOne page on the Purolator site.

Note that RR specifically mentions that the pleats are all of the same height and depth, and that the number varies by filter from 57 to 60. It's unclear, but the order of the number listed implies that the D+ is 57 and the P1 is 60.

Yes those links i've read i thought you had something else,i don't know that still is unclear,to justify that kind of price difference going on 36% diff,not flying here yet.
 
Well, for me it really comes down to 2 things:

1. How important is the extra capacity when doing 15,000 OCIs?
2. How significant is the $7 per filter difference?

I have a spreadsheet that I work this stuff out on. And it shows that in 100,000 miles (about 2 years for me), I spend about $7000 on gasoline, about $480 in tires, and about $150 on oil... and either $47 or $97 on oil filters depending upon whether I use the P1 or the D+. The totals work out to $7677 or $7727. It's about a 0.65% difference in overall cost. So the few dollars difference doesn't really concern me. It's the performance.

Then again... VW's didn't used to even have filters and they did alright. But then... Ford or someone (I'd have to dig up the link) did some research showing that oil filtration to smaller micron sizes than are normally considered significant reduces engine wear significantly.

It's worth the peace of mind to know that I'm using the best filter for my application that is practical to use. Determining what the "best" is... is another matter.

I'm pretty sure that you are right and that the P1 should be fine for 15,000 miles. Even though the PL14476 filter that my Yaris uses is tiny. (Notably smaller even than the filter on my 1.0L 3 cylinder Chevy Sprint.) But if the filtration efficiency for the Bosch comes back at about what the P1 does, I'll probably use the Bosch. Then again, I have two different sets of figures, both supposedly from Purolator engineers, on the P1. One set is just "exceedingly impressive". The other set is "absolutely stellar".

And of course, I'm obsessing. But if people didn't do that BITOG would be a quiet place, indeed. :)

-Steve
 
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I think it comes down to what we think is righ,we think the D+ will perform different/better then the p1 because they "say" it does.

but i could be wrong
 
So you think they might be flat out lying about the results from the ISO 4548-12 procedure? They are saying that the filter holds 29.1g according to that standardized test.
 
No not saying that,,but....untill i see some sort of real world test along the lines of what RR did im not buying it,the P1 would do just aas good IMO.
 
Originally Posted By: daman
No not saying that,,but....untill i see some sort of real world test along the lines of what RR did im not buying it,the P1 would do just aas good IMO.

So far as I know, my real world engine is not likely to have much talcum powder in it. ;-) RR's information is very interesting, and valuable. *Especially* the info on filter construction. But, with the utmost respect for RR's work and generosity, the flow and filtration tests are hardly "real world".

I'd place more faith in the results of standardized tests like SAE J1858.

But as Spock was (Is? Will be?) fond of saying "A difference which makes no difference *is* no difference". If no one needs more than 13g of capacity to get through the longest reasonable OCI... then that factor is of no value. Of course... if you had some indication of exactly when a filter really *needed* to be changed, (Think about that little light on the vacuum cleaner that tells you when the bag needs to be changed.) you could just run whatever filter until that point. And probably run the D+ about 2.25x as long as the P1. In which case, using the test numbers we've discussed, and current pricing at Advance Auto, the D+ would come out about 8% cheaper per mile.

Edit: So why don't we have a dash light to tell us when the bypass valve is open? It would save an awful lot of guessing and speculation. More realistically, the ECU would monitor this and flash a "Oil Filter Required" light when it thought it was appropriate.
 
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Originally Posted By: sbergman27
I'd place more faith in the results of standardized tests like SAE J1858.

Not a real world test either. They pump oil in a loop through the filter while adding calibrated particuates.
When there is a pressure drop that they determine indicates the end of the filter's "useful life" they count the contaminant particles in the oil. Very sophisticated, but far from engine conditions.
One difference between me and them, is I am not trying to sell you a filter. LOL

Anyway, yes, I do read the SAE/ISO tests, too, and use them to help selection. But in the absence of data, the comparisons have told me a lot. Especially in repeated runs where I get the filter dirtier than it should ever be in an engine.
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I should add that in *no* case was a fiter comappred to another "known" filter without simultaneously filtering my contaminated oil mixture through them in the same new condition at the same time.
That's what made this so expensive for me...
Wanna look at the hot new "SuperStrainer" from X-Co?
I would have to buy that thing, and, for example, a new PureONE, and a new Purolator Classic (with published efficiencies)
mix the contaminent solution, and dip them all in at the same time, (usually multiple times) starting brand new with all filters to keep things even. Then draw a sample to let settle out after each dipping.

(The eggheads at the ISU College of Ag and Biosystems Engineering at least taught me a something about scientific method.)

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How well does oil, driven be gravity, slowly seeping through media, model hot oil flowing through the same media under pressure? What range of micron sizes is represented by the talcum powder? And how does the range of particle sizes on the outside of the filter compare to what makes it inside?
 
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Although the viscosity of all liquids tends to vary with shear, I think oil is fairly Newtonian, having close to the same viscosity at different shear rates. So the gravity driven test should be valid. Maybe something coarser than 10 micron talc might be better, but it does give a good idea. Note, I just caught an error. A micron is a millionth of a meter, not thousandth. This may or may not be a great test, but it sure beats just looking at the construction. Also I am not sure how accurately you can measure the thickness of the media, but the bet you can is better than not at all. I like the magnified pictures of it too. Anything leaves room to nitpick. Over all, a nice piece of work. Thanks.
 
1. The object is to find which medias pass oil more easily, and there is a correlation between visible media porosity/thickness/quantity and flow rate. Some medias pass oil very slowly in the gravity test. This is included as many people are concerned about flow rate in the smaller filters used these days, and want to have some idea of which will likely drop less pressure in use. In actuality, the filter is almost always relatively "invisible" to the pressure across the bearings, etc.
The relative results seem to bear this out weather I use thin (e.g. WD40) and pull it through under 10" Hg vacuum, or let gravity do the job.

2. Talcum powder is generally approximately 10 microns average.
Lately, I've been mixing some flour into the oil, too. Although this has not changed the ranking as to which medias filter more junk for me.

3. The proportional range is unknown. However the medias with the higher "factory" ratings certainly filter more than the less efficient medias, as you can see in the settling tubes.
This doesn't concern me, as with any home test, my goal was to find the medias (data unpublished or incomplete) which filtered out more of the same, given "dirt."
I experimented with different powders, because I needed to find some that would really show a difference...Too course and it all gets filtered, too fine and there might not be any difference to see.
The talc, and or flour seems to do well, as there is a considerable difference between what different filter medias let through, and a huge difference in what the sample tubes look like if a sample is drawn before passing it through the media.

Obviously, I can't give % efficiency numbers here, but a visual indication of different (often unknown) filter media that correlates well when known % media is compared to each other.

Some filter medias just let less junk though.
I looked at the Denso and K&N media, for example, both under the microscope, and in comparison of filtrate, (and ease of flow in the bench test) and find that...as good of filter as this might be...the media is quite open porosity compared to, say, a K&N of the same model. I chose the K&N myself, because it appears to filter better per pass, than the Denso for me. That's my own choice. There was no information published on the Denso.

I have gotten a lot of flack at times for this not being an ISO test with numbers, and I really wish I had kept my little basement playtime results to myself by now. But I thought some might find it useful in the vacuum of data.

Now I have a question for you:
What percentage increase in engine life, due to reduced abrasive wear, will you gain for each additional percentage over 95%, ISO mutipass, at 20 microns?

Obviously, it's an unanswerable. But rather than obsessing over numbers which do not indicate a knowable engine wear, I just wanted to know which filter would likey be the best filterers for my application. Especially, when the box just says "Excellent filtration!" and nothing more.
 
Originally Posted By: river_rat
Now I have a question for you:
What percentage increase in engine life, due to reduced abrasive wear, will you gain for each additional percentage over 95%, ISO mutipass, at 20 microns?

Well, that's an interesting question, isn't it?

First, let me say that I'll bet that your work has had more educational value to you than looking over a thousand standardized test results. And some of that you've no doubt been able to pass on to others. Your project needs no more justification than that, no matter what anyone else might say or think. It's a noble and worthy cause. I'd venture to guess that it has been serendipitous. (These things tend to be so.)

Regarding your question... it's a bit of a tangle, isn't it? We know that mid 20th century technology gave us VW Beatles that were good for 100,000 miles on nothing but an oil screen. In the "sophisticated" 21st century we think we know a bit more.

Today, our engines are probably at greater risk of being done in by a bit of 5000 micron debris from a failed Ecore than by any amount of 20 micron dust.

It's nice to have information from a variety of sources and viewpoints.
 
Thanks... and thanks for cool link, too.

It's hard to explain on the web, sometimes. When you spend hour after hour seeing filter A stop way more dirt than filter B, no matter what you do, or how many times you do it...then seeing the media is also spun tighter on A under the scope, then...seeing that the published data matches up (when available)
--I built a lot of confidence for choosing my own filters based on this.

Others can take it or leave it, but I do want it known that the examinations were as fair and even as I could make them, but they can't prove one is overall a better buy than another.
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Originally Posted By: sbergman27
We know that mid 20th century technology gave us VW Beatles that were good for 100,000 miles on nothing but an oil screen. In the "sophisticated" 21st century we think we know a bit more.


Heh heh. I put a remote filter on my '69 Bus.
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withhoses.jpg
 
Originally Posted By: labman
...Anything leaves room to nitpick. Over all, a nice piece of work. Thanks.

Thank you. And all this time I missed that you even posted until I went back to look at some old pictures.

At the end of the day, it's just a lot of filtering with filters:
Some always pass a lot more of the same dirt...Some always take much longer to let oil through...I observe and report.
Paper media is not rocket science.
 
The test comparison prompts this question: How much dirt and other debri do car engines generate after the initial break-in wear? I believe that Consumer Reports once did a filter comparison on a taxi fleet and found that that oil and filters then (several years ago) would go 6000 miles without harm.
 
The Motorcraft FL-820s uses the spiral metal tube and clamp to seal the filter media. I cut one open a new one about a month ago. The filter media on the Motorcraft also measured about .30" thick and had the same appearance as the Bosch D+.

I am not saying the (I don't know) the Motorcraft is using the same filter media as the Bosch D+, but I examined it under magnification and it "appears" the same. The filter media thickness, sprial metal tube, and filter media clamp are definately all the same.
 
Originally Posted By: modularv8
The filter media on the Motorcraft also measured about .30" thick and had the same appearance as the Bosch D+.


You probably mean 0.030" (30 thousands) ... 0.30" would probably be one restrictive (but effective) filter.
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