Will a less Efficient Filter Keep Oil as Clean as More Efficient One

[RazorsEdge]

Just because you can't huge noticeable wear with your eyes doesn't mean it's not wearing. Been pointed out many times that the level of wear should be considered over the life of the vehicle. Ring wear is usually the main thing that happens to ICE, and dirty oil just contribute to more wear over the long run.

My goal is to use higher grade oils, air filters and oil filters to complete the trifecta required to mitigate wear from all angles and keep the engine in good physical health to keep its operation in top condition. Every parrots the "the air filter is the most important filter", which is true ... but it doesn't mean that using a low efficiency oil filter is a good idea. If debris gets past the air filter, then the oil filter is the last component that can remove that debris, so it too should be high efficiency to ensure it catches as much as possible, regardless of how the debris gets into the oil.

The frame of the vehicle with the constant twist.The suspension system- shocks,struts, stabilizer bars. Think of the bigger components of your vehicle than the particles in the oil of all places that you will NEVER be able to totally get eliminated no matter how badly you want that to be! Your engine will in most cases outlast the rest of the vehicle in most cases.

I bet you'd freak out knowing all of the dust,dirt and debris that you constantly consume on a daily basis in your own home. This is your health! Which is waaaaaay more important than a oil filter! Do you have an air purifier?! Great, I do too! But you know what, it's not going to capture 100% of the airborne particles in your home either.

Your obsession is crazy and has no conclusion to achieve your 100% you are so chasing!

 

[Mewbs]

I find it concerning that people are taking a garage test which has many control and conditon flaws as gospel over an expensive industry standardized laboratory test. We should be lucky to have such data shared here by a professional business. Although such unfortunate he is no longer an active member here. His experience would add to the conversation here.

Which i have stated before, doing an in service oil particle count test on your vehicle would yield more practical data of filtration performance from filter to filter. In which will show more value over time as more data is collected to make an informed decision.

 

[himemsys]

That's just theory on why you think it's not really what the M+H spec sheet shows, or the test Ascent did, and seem to believe BRs "efficiency testing" more than the official ISO test data. If it's still as Ascent tested and really closer to 99% >46u, then how do you feel about that is what I meant.

The Ascent tests showed better than 46 microns, right? 34 microns? If you are comfortable with their Fram Ultra results, then I am comfortable with their BOSS results.

In the absence of Fram official ISO test data, I am comfortable believing the data that BR presented (especially since it is with current filters). And I am comfortable using the Purolator BOSS. I will probably try one out at my next oil change (I've tried Purolator filters long ago, but never a BOSS, however I've used Fram Ultras exclusively for at least the past 5 years).

 

[ZeeOSix]

The frame of the vehicle with the constant twist.The suspension system- shocks,struts, stabilizer bars. Think of the bigger components of your vehicle than the particles in the oil of all places that you will NEVER be able to totally get eliminated no matter how badly you want that to be! Your engine will in most cases outlast the rest of the vehicle in most cases.

I bet you'd freak out knowing all of the dust,dirt and debris that you constantly consume on a daily basis in your own home. This is your health! Which is waaaaaay more important than a oil filter! Do you have an air purifier?! Great, I do too! But you know what, it's not going to capture 100% of the airborne particles in your home either.

Your obsession is crazy and has no conclusion to achieve your 100% you are so chasing!

LoL ... using good oil and filters that are available off the shelf is not a "crazy obsession" ... it's called practicing good maintenance to keep my stuff in good condition. It's now degrading down to "if it doesn't blow up your engine it's good enough" and "your car is going to get t-boned and totaled or it's going to rust out (not in my case) before the engine wear out". Those kinds of "logic" always show up into this kind of discussions about oil and filters.

 

[himemsys]

doing an in service oil particle count test on your vehicle would yield more practical data of filtration performance from filter to filter.

I believe @fantastic showed particle count data from a Purolator filter earlier in this thread, and it looked really good.

 

[fantastic]

Yet Purolator just uses the largest 30001 model filter on their website to reference the efficiency of the whole One or Boss line, which doesn't even match the official M+H spec sheet. The M+H spec sheets or a link how to get them are nowhere on the Purolator website for the public to get. It's a "hidden secret" to the public unless the contact them and ask, which hardly anyone would do except crazed filter maniacs on BITOG, lol.

You're referencing their "Marketing Claim". I speak about ISO Spec sheets which I've mentioned several times which cuts out that nonsense.

 

[RazorsEdge]

LoL ... using good oil and filters that are available off the shelf is not a "crazy obsession" ... it's called practicing good maintenance to keep my stuff in good condition. It's now degrading down to "if it doesn't blow up you engine it's good enough" and "your car is going to get t-boned and totaled or it's going to rust out (not in my case) before the engine wear out". Those kinds of "logic" always show up into the kind of discussions about oil and filters.

You constantly have missed the point. That's fine with me honestly. Not all of us grow up and tear engines apart, put them back together in controlled,clean environments. What, what? Yes you'd be surprised how some places assemble engines from the very start. These engines deal with the particles just fine. It's the incorrect machine processing that causes the destruction. It's the weak metal that causes the destruction. You continue to worry but it will accomplish nothing. You've chosen this path and it makes you feel comfortable, so go forward as you wish.

 

[fantastic]

That's not an answer to what I asked. Do you use a Boss or something else? If something else, what source of the ISO 4548-12 efficiency data did you use to decide what filter(s) you're using?

Your answer is listed right in my signature. ha ha

 

[Mewbs]

I believe @fantastic showed particle count data from a Purolator filter earlier in this thread, and it looked really good.

Im voluntaringly going to get some iso particle count test on some future oil samples in standard 5k service intervals however that would mean temporary ending my extended drain trials with HPL oils that i have recently started.

I have a large collection of filters im willing to try but also depends if i have the budget for such a personal citizen science project...

 

[ZeeOSix]

The Ascent tests showed better than 46 microns, right? 34 microns? If you are comfortable with their Fram Ultra results, then I am comfortable with their BOSS results.

In the absence of Fram official ISO test data, I am comfortable believing the data that BR presented (especially since it is with current filters). And I am comfortable using the Purolator BOSS. I will probably try one out at my next oil change (I've tried Purolator filters long ago, but never a BOSS, however I've used Fram Ultras exclusively for at least the past 5 years).

The testing Ascent did was in an ISO 4548-12 certified lab, so yes it's trustworthy data. Any official ISO 4548-12 data is trustworthy because that's an international efficiency test standard that's been used for 25 years.

Yes, it would be interesting to see Ascent retest with current filters, but I'm not going to ever say that a test like BR does is going to over-ride any official ISO test data until it could be proven with an official ISO test. Per M+H spec sheets, their ISO 4548-12 efficiency would not cause the Boss to rank 3rd in efficiency in the BR test, nor would Ascent's Boss test efficiency make it rank 3rd in BRs testing ... just not possible, and that's the disconnect. If it really was as efficient as the BR ranked #1 and #2 filters, then Purolator/M+H should be all over it and touting the high efficiency to boost their sales. No way their marketing department is that inept. Heck, if it was proven the BOSS was 99% @ 20u like and Ultra or Titanium with an ISO efficiency test I'd be buying them. But until it's proven with an Ascent like official test, I'm going to believe the M+H spec sheets, just like fantastic does.

 

[ZeeOSix]

Your answer is listed right in my signature. ha ha

I have signatures turned off, lol. Which PureOne filter, and what's the spec sheet show for ISO efficiency? Why not use a Boss instead?

So where are you getting the ISO efficiency specs for the "Pronto" filter? You got a spec sheet for the exact filter model you're using?

 

[ZeeOSix]

You're referencing their "Marketing Claim". I speak about ISO Spec sheets which I've mentioned several times which cuts out that nonsense.

Like I said ... there is no reference to spec sheets on their website ... only efficiency claims that do not match the spec sheets, which could technically be considered false advertising.

 

[ZeeOSix]

You constantly have missed the point. That's fine with me honestly. Not all of us grow up and tear engines apart, put them back together in controlled,clean environments. What, what? Yes you'd be surprised how some places assemble engines from the very start. These engines deal with the particles just fine. It's the incorrect machine processing that causes the destruction. It's the weak metal that causes the destruction. You continue to worry but it will accomplish nothing. You've chosen this path and it makes you feel comfortable, so go forward as you wish.

I'm not "worried" about anything ... I simply use higher end oils and filters for a reason. You now chastising people for choosing the products they think are better suited to keep their vehicles in good shape? I don't care what other people use (use crap oil and filters if you want), but I say why I use some of the products I chose to use ... like oil HTHS viscosity and the add pack, and both air and oil filter efficiency. Those kind of things are what I focus on when buying the products I use. That's far from being "worried" about anything ... it's just part of regular maintenance.

 

[ZeeOSix]

I watched a WCW video that showed a Boss filter loaded pretty good during break-in period.

Of course ... even a rock catcher will filter out big particles like that example.

 

[ZeeOSix]

Im voluntaringly going to get some iso particle count test on some future oil samples in standard 5k service intervals however that would mean temporary ending my extended drain trials with HPL oils that i have recently started.

I have a large collection of filters im willing to try but also depends if i have the budget for such a personal citizen science project...

And the time to run them all. I'd suggest doing the least efficient and most efficient filters first to see the difference. The BOSS and Titanium would be a good comparison. The Toyota is most likely the least efficient based on past info. A 10K OCI would be better, as the longer the OCI the more difference should be seen in the oil cleanliness due to filtration.

 

[Glenda W.]

As cool as the BR video is unfortunately there’s no way of knowing what variables were controlled and which weren’t. The ISO tests are controlled and repeatable, therefore the only results we can trust.

 

[ZeeOSix]

One aspect that isn't brought up much is if an oil filter is shown to be a big "debris slougher" as dP increases, then that also means when the dP increases like from accelerating while revving the engine to high RPM, or higher dP upon a cold engine start-up, it could cause the filter to release a bunch of already captured debris into the engine, that would eventually be captured again as it's recirculated back through the filter.

But repeated small episodes of dirty oil being released through the oiling system can add up over time. A high efficiency filter that loses very little efficiency as the dP increases, like seen in the higher efficiency filters Ascent tested, will help ensure already captured debris stays in the filter during any kind of increased dP episodes.

 

[Al]

I have asked a similar question - if the removal rate is faster than the production rate - is it keeping up …

Exactly. That is where I am coming from. Sometimes you have to think a bit outside the box. Certainly the obvious answer to my question is "No". But in the real world of particles that cause engine wear that matters. I believe the answer is still "yes". Thank you for making my point better than I did.

Found this (not totally related to the discussion)

MSN

 

[wpod]

We question we need to ask is,,, will the premium filter actually make a difference in real life ? The air filter and sealed intake plumbing is way more important to engine life. Properly maintained engines usually out last the life of ones ownership of the vehicle.

 

[ZeeOSix]

The bottom line is that no controlled study is going to conclude that cleaner oil from better filtration doesn't reduce wear. Sure we all know that the air filter is important, but does that mean you should ignore what the efficiency of the oil filter is ... not really. And just how many people dive into the air filter efficiency specs like they do with oil filters. Air filter efficiency specs are even more convoluted because they can run either coarse dust or fine dust in the air filter ISO 5011 test. Reading the air filter forum here, not a lot of people dig into the air filter efficiency specs much. As mentioned before, whatever gets into the oil from whatever source, the oil filter is the only way to remove it. Or dump the sump ... those are the only two ways to take care of debris in the oil.