Solar Panels for house

[UncleDave]

On a side note - we have a few solar field installation projects here in South Carolina. Some are right next to the interstate - makes sense as that land generally isn't wanted for much else.

None of these installs track the sun. That part seems stupid to me - for the cost of a cheap circuit and gear motor, you could probably get 50% more power a day from the panel.

Anyone know why? Utilities just too stupid? I know the installations in Australia the middle eastern desert's do track the sun?

A single axis tracker usually buys 25-35% and a dual axis tracker 10% more.

Most opt to just add more panels vs a tracker and its associated cost and ongoing maintenance.

 

[ArrestMeRedZ]

Vegas also has Palo Verde.

No, sir. We also don't have the yuge hydroelectric plant at Hoover Dam. Almost all power from those sources goes elsewhere.
Rates in Vegas used to be a great reason to move here. Then our Nevada Power bought out Sierra Pacific Power and the subsequent NV Energy raised Vegas rates to subsidize Northern Nevada. Still weren't too bad. Then the illustrious Harry Reid made NV Energy officials "see the light" about green power (they previously knew the scam). Coal plants were closed, solar plants and rooftops were subsidized and rates went way up.
NV Energy officials (the CEO) and 10 or 20 of his closest friends were personally making money hand over fist. The Nevada Public Utilities Commission allowed the company a 10% return on investment and the corporate suits divided it up in salary and bonuses instead of returning it to investors. As a result stock price was low. Enter Warren Buffet, who loves deep moats (another way of saying monopolies). He bought the company and the now rich execs were replaced by reasonably paid ones. Berkshire Hathaway got the returns.
As you may imagine, rates have gone way up under Buffet's benevolent leadership. Nobody said he wasn't in it for the money. The Nevada Public Utilities Commission rubber stamps his requests for increases. The latest is a request to raise the connection fee to $45 a month per house. That is $45 a month if you use zero power. It's For the Children, I mean the planet, I mean I don't know what it's really for, other than to claw back money from rooftop solar owners and everybody else.

I would feel bad about my electricity costs doubling or trippling since I moved here, but I know I'm personally saving the planet from the existential threat of runaway climate models produced by pseudo scientists. And I bought some BRK/B so, in effect, I get some of it back.

 

[4WD]

Seems you will need to visit with an Armani clad lawyer that allows camouflage clothing in his office …

https://www.primalsurvivor.net/california-off-grid-laws/#Is Living Off-Grid Legal in California?

 

[PandaBear]

Many realize they will die long before reaching their ROI.

This is why it is important to invest in something that you can sell to others midway.

Most people probably wouldn't finish their 30 year fixed mortgage, but you can refi midway. Also the lender can sell the loan to others to continue the term.

 

[PandaBear]

On a side note - we have a few solar field installation projects here in South Carolina. Some are right next to the interstate - makes sense as that land generally isn't wanted for much else.

None of these installs track the sun. That part seems stupid to me - for the cost of a cheap circuit and gear motor, you could probably get 50% more power a day from the panel.

Anyone know why? Utilities just too stupid? I know the installations in Australia the middle eastern desert's do track the sun?

Tracking can cost a lot of money because 1) you need to build them strong and 2) there is a risk that if the tracking malfunction it would make things WORSE than not tracking at all.

Sometimes it is easier to just use the same money to put in more panels if you have the land, and sometimes it is easier to just aim your panels to the highest paying time period (duck curve, 4pm-8pm), or your own usage time (i.e. solar in our school district aim east, which is probably ideal for 7am-2pm).

 

[PandaBear]

Of note, someone once calculated that it would take 2 miles of adjacent solar panels to power all national interstates 24/7 365.

Yet we have 2.2 billion years of viable nuclear energy available to us. If we are to de-Carbonize, there is one way to do it. With enough excess energy to pull as much Carbon from the atmosphere as we would like to, and separate out the Oxygen.

We will never run out of energy, but we would run out of cheap energy.

The thing about solar is, in theory you can get back your ROI vs local grid anywhere probably from 5 years to 20 years. Roof top residential solar is expensive compare to grid scale because of installation cost and economy of scale, and many local grids are already very "clean", either they have a lot of grid scale solar, hydro, geothermal, or if you consider nuke, nuke.

Personally with our new NEM3.0 and we could buy 100% "clean" energy from our local municipal utility (you just have to pay a bit more if you want), I don't see installing roof top solar to save the world make sense. I can just pay someone to install in desert.

Nuke's problem is and has always been political. People want nuke but don't want a permanent disposal site near them, and people don't want to spend a lot to either reprocess or build breeder reactor like CANDU.

 

[PandaBear]

Im all for the fed subsidy removal, but almost everyone gets the California "subsidy" wrong.

If anyone is interested in knowing where the real subsidy is in California ask one simple question.

Why cant people with solar panels can't legally disconnect from the grid?

The narrative that California's poor subsidized the rich purchase of panels was debunked by Lawrence Berkley labs who concluded that although it existed, its actual impact was utterly inconsequential amounting to pennies.

Thanks to a full court ad campaign big power in ca now gets its go forward solar power for free paid for wholly by new home owners who HAVE to purchase solar systems - and give their power away for almost nothing.

I don't think you "can't". If you build your battery storage large enough and don't pay your bill they will disconnect you.

The problem with "disconnecting" from the grid is, your home price would probably drop so much it makes no sense. You can just connect to the grid and pay that $20-30/month and use a token amount of electricity, and avoid all that real estate price drop problem.

 

[ripcord]

I don't think you "can't". If you build your battery storage large enough and don't pay your bill they will disconnect you.

The problem with "disconnecting" from the grid is, your home price would probably drop so much it makes no sense. You can just connect to the grid and pay that $20-30/month and use a token amount of electricity, and avoid all that real estate price drop problem.

Once enough people do this, though, it will affect the power companies bottom line and that $20-30/month figure will inevitably become $200-300 a month... and it will happen much sooner than you think.

 

[ripcord]

Im all for the fed subsidy removal, but almost everyone gets the California "subsidy" wrong.

If anyone is interested in knowing where the real subsidy is in California ask one simple question.

Why cant people with solar panels can't legally disconnect from the grid?

The narrative that California's poor subsidized the rich purchase of panels was debunked by Lawrence Berkley labs who concluded that although it existed, its actual impact was utterly inconsequential amounting to pennies.

Thanks to a full court ad campaign big power in ca now gets its go forward solar power for free paid for wholly by new home owners who HAVE to purchase solar systems - and give their power away for almost nothing.

The only way to come out ahead is to feed that solar power into a large and expensive battery. For most people that battery would be an expensive EV.

Most people who thought they were going to save money on gas by buying an EV are in for heaps of disappointment as more EV's get attached to the power grid and they find that all their fuel savings are more than offset by higher electrical bills regardless of how many panels they have on their roof.

 

[4WD]

No, sir. We also don't have the yuge hydroelectric plant at Hoover Dam. Almost all power from those sources goes elsewhere.
Rates in Vegas used to be a great reason to move here. Then our Nevada Power bought out Sierra Pacific Power and the subsequent NV Energy raised Vegas rates to subsidize Northern Nevada. Still weren't too bad. Then the illustrious Harry Reid made NV Energy officials "see the light" about green power (they previously knew the scam). Coal plants were closed, solar plants and rooftops were subsidized and rates went way up.
NV Energy officials (the CEO) and 10 or 20 of his closest friends were personally making money hand over fist. The Nevada Public Utilities Commission allowed the company a 10% return on investment and the corporate suits divided it up in salary and bonuses instead of returning it to investors. As a result stock price was low. Enter Warren Buffet, who loves deep moats (another way of saying monopolies). He bought the company and the now rich execs were replaced by reasonably paid ones. Berkshire Hathaway got the returns.
As you may imagine, rates have gone way up under Buffet's benevolent leadership. Nobody said he wasn't in it for the money. The Nevada Public Utilities Commission rubber stamps his requests for increases. The latest is a request to raise the connection fee to $45 a month per house. That is $45 a month if you use zero power. It's For the Children, I mean the planet, I mean I don't know what it's really for, other than to claw back money from rooftop solar owners and everybody else.

I would feel bad about my electricity costs doubling or trippling since I moved here, but I know I'm personally saving the planet from the existential threat of runaway climate models produced by pseudo scientists. And I bought some BRK/B so, in effect, I get some of it back.

Is he that super nice old man that likes to haul crude alongside of pristine rivers - and he can bcs of one distinction ?

 

[PandaBear]

Once enough people do this, though, it will affect the power companies bottom line and that $20-30/month figure will inevitably become $200-300 a month... and it will happen much sooner than you think.

Maybe, maybe not. I don't ever see roof top solar + battery ever be cheaper than utility scale solar + grid. Battery is expensive, more expensive than paying power plant to ramp up and down based on the load. Solar on roof top is more expensive than rows and rows of them in the desert as well.

Another thing about roof top solar is, at least in the current grid, if I install solar I am competing with not fossil fuel rate, but other solar installed at a cheaper rate in the peak, and if I install battery, my battery cost would also be using my solar (more expensive) than the grid solar (less expensive) to charge. Oh, btw, in theory battery would have the same economy of scale in grid vs residential, and therefore you will never make more installing your own.

The only exception I can think of, is the roof top solar help reduce the heat entering your home, and if you build them right they would have just the right size to power your AC instead of going into and out of the grid. I think if someone build a setup of roof top solar + AC + ice storage to load shift the AC, it would be very popular and not causing problem to the grid, and could run completely off grid on its own.

 

[UncleDave]

I don't think you "can't". If you build your battery storage large enough and don't pay your bill they will disconnect you.

The problem with "disconnecting" from the grid is, your home price would probably drop so much it makes no sense. You can just connect to the grid and pay that $20-30/month and use a token amount of electricity, and avoid all that real estate price drop problem.

You cant.

If I build my systems and batteries large enough I shouldn't have a bill to pay after that - right?
If I do that I dont need them anymore - except they force me to keep subsidizing everyone else and them.

In california - as long as your home is, or was connected - you cannot disconnect from the grid legally.
You need to maintain an "interconnected pathway"
(short for stay connected and pay those grid maintenance fees - for the grid you arent using at that point)

They want to force everyone to buy batteries and they can legally steal your battery power when they want to (for the greater good) , and the contract forces you sell them your power for less than what you'd buy it for - they mark it up and sell it to everyone else making fortunes on power that YOU pay to install and maintain.

As of Nem 3.0 that "20-30" connection fee costs you way more than that over time and amounts to the provider subsidizing public companies.

Right now the state and power companies get it both ways, at the expensive of the new homeowner.

 

[UncleDave]

The only way to come out ahead is to feed that solar power into a large and expensive battery. For most people that battery would be an expensive EV.

Most people who thought they were going to save money on gas by buying an EV are in for heaps of disappointment as more EV's get attached to the power grid and they find that all their fuel savings are more than offset by higher electrical bills regardless of how many panels they have on their roof.

If you had a nem 2.0 contract you could come out ahead.

NEM 3.0 is a different proposition.

 

[4WD]

I’ll say it again - fixed batteries (wants) will only make mobile (needs) batteries more expensive = nearsightedness …

 

[ProbeGT]

I seriously considered getting rooftop solar here in central TX on three different occasions. It just doesn't make financial sense even before you consider risks associated with weather related events.

Add hailstorms to the calculations and it is impossible to justify. We get hailstorms every year and once every 3-4 years a major one, with plum size stones which wipe out entire solar arrays.

Last year I consulted with a certified installer of GAP solar shingles and the owner of the company admitted they break just as easily as panels.

 

[02SE]

Stories of con-artist Solar Panel companies are a regular theme with local News Investigative Reporters.

 

[UncleDave]

South Carolina tried to build a reactor and failed - spectacularly. Good to know your limits.

The guys in Cali arent much better - installing a 420 ton reactor backwards.

At this point a smart governor would hire/ contract the guys from Canada.

 

[PandaBear]

You cant.

If I build my systems and batteries large enough I shouldn't have a bill to pay after that - right?
If I do that I dont need them anymore - except they force me to keep subsidizing everyone else and them.

In california - as long as your home is, or was connected - you cannot disconnect from the grid legally.
You need to maintain an "interconnected pathway"
(short for stay connected and pay those grid maintenance fees - for the grid you arent using at that point)

They want to force everyone to buy batteries and they can legally steal your battery power when they want to (for the greater good) , and the contract forces you sell them your power for less than what you'd buy it for - they mark it up and sell it to everyone else making fortunes on power that YOU pay to install and maintain.

As of Nem 3.0 that "20-30" connection fee costs you way more than that over time and amounts to the provider subsidizing public companies.

Right now the state and power companies get it both ways, at the expensive of the new homeowner.

I don't think we are talking about the same thing. You can just cancel your account and NOT pay a penny ever afterward. You cannot just assume you don't use anything while you are connected and not pay for it. That's what completely off grid means. Obviously if you want to sell your house you need to convince your buyer it is actually better (I don't know too many people would like it that way, at least I don't).

I think the battery is for YOU to use instead of storing it and then unload it back to the grid. You either store it for your own use or sell it to the grid (or you can waste it if you want to make a statement), but not store it and then forced to sell to the grid. Otherwise there is no point in having a battery at all and you are better off just sell them back at wholesale. If you don't agree, where did you read that "force everyone to buy batteries and they can legally steal your battery power" from?

The "force you to sell them for less than what you buy from" actually make sense to avoid someone overproducing at some time then use up all the shortage power at another time. This is like when you harvest a bunch of strawberries during peak season and drop them off at a store, then when it is off season demand to get the same amount of strawberries back at no cost.

I think today's roof top solar is just too expensive unless you need a new roof anyways, and you can use the additional roof energy to cool down your house and power your AC. Anything more than that is a gamble and rose tinted.

 

[UncleDave]

I don't think we are talking about the same thing. You can just cancel your account and NOT pay a penny ever afterward. You cannot just assume you don't use anything while you are connected and not pay for it. That's what completely off grid means. Obviously if you want to sell your house you need to convince your buyer it is actually better (I don't know too many people would like it that way, at least I don't).

I think the battery is for YOU to use instead of storing it and then unload it back to the grid. You either store it for your own use or sell it to the grid (or you can waste it if you want to make a statement), but not store it and then forced to sell to the grid. Otherwise there is no point in having a battery at all and you are better off just sell them back at wholesale. If you don't agree, where did you read that "force everyone to buy batteries and they can legally steal your battery power" from?

The "force you to sell them for less than what you buy from" actually make sense to avoid someone overproducing at some time then use up all the shortage power at another time. This is like when you harvest a bunch of strawberries during peak season and drop them off at a store, then when it is off season demand to get the same amount of strawberries back at no cost.

I think today's roof top solar is just too expensive unless you need a new roof anyways, and you can use the additional roof energy to cool down your house and power your AC. Anything more than that is a gamble and rose tinted.

Completely off grid means the property was never connected in the first place.
This is the only form of off grid allowed in cali.

If your house was on the grid when you signed up for solar - You are not allowed to cancel your account and disconnect.
Oh you could physically do it but the power company will red flag your house as being in violation of electrical code with your registering city and you will be fined until you reconnect or move and or see your homeowner insurance cancelled.

Nem 3 works on an avoidance, vs net metering, and if you want any hope of an ROI you must export during peak house so forcing inst the right word - its constructed in a way that almost no ROI exists without selling during peak hours.
There is an emergency provision that allows them to pull from your battery regardless of your preference to do so or not.

 

[CKN]

I just checked; their website is down. Could be bad. I will look into this.
My understanding is the components are warranted by their makers, but the labor?

At the time of installation, they were highly rated.

This is the issue. Most companies that install solar do not stay in business long. Good luck on the warranty. Or- they change their company structure to a new name/ organization so you are on your own with warranty. Solar companies in general are very sketchy.