Snowblower bites the dust/ Oil ratios for 2 cycles

[Tdbo]

It's been a great winter (sarcasm intended), another 5" of snow this morning. Got out the 1999 model Craftsman Single Stage(5 hp Tecumseh 2-cycle 21" MTD. ) Wouldn't hardly start. Finally got it going, lacked its usual power, look down to see 2 cycle oil coming out the muffler on the pavement. Started making a not so great sounding noise. So I figure that I probably got my $399 out of it but still need to get 5" of snow off the ground and I'm not going to do it by hand with my bad back, so I start snowblower shopping on line. Wanted a single stage 2 cycle with an electric start. That narrowed it down to a Toro. Started working the phone, calling every Toro dealer in a one county radius. Ended up at a small shop that had 4 Toro Power Clear 221QE's and bought one for $25 over cost (saw the invoice.) It is an impressive machine (can't remember the last time I saw total black when I cleaned my drive) and I can't remember seeing a single stage throw snow that far. The question that I have (and I know that it has been covered in some form before but not quite this form,) I have a variety of 2 cycle mixtures: 32:1 (lawn boy ,tiller)
40:1 (blower, weedeater, and old Craftsman) and now this snowblower is 50:1. Was talking to the owner of the shop and he said that he recommends Echo oil and says that it is such a superior product that I can run it in everything 50:1 without problems. I'm somewhat uncertain and need some advice. Thanks in advance.

 

[troyb43]

Try Amsoil Saber 100:1, has worked well in my Echo leaf blower

 

[Warstud]

It may smoke a bit....but you can use your 40:1 mixture.

 

[boraticus]

I have tons of two cycle equipment and I also bought a new Toro 221QE a few weeks ago.

DO NOT run your equipment at 100:1. That's simply bad advice for an air cooled engine. I don't care what kind of oil is used.

I have mixed my fuel between 35:1 to 40:1 and run it in everything from chainsaws to snow throwers.

Run your equipment at max. rpms and you'll have no spark plug fouling issues nor carbon build up problems at that ratio.

You don't need synthetic two cycle oil either. Run any decent quality conventional two cycle TC-3 or TCW-3.

Toro recommends TCW-3 for some reason. That's normally formulated for outboard motors which run at cooler temperatures and need an oil that produces less ash. I run TC-3 in everything air cooled because it's formulated for higher temperatures.

I buy Canadian Tire Motomaster two cycle oil by the gallon and use it in all of my OPE and also in my modified vintage Yamaha RD two stroke motorcycles. Those old machines spin up to 10,000 rpm without blowing up. So, the oil must be doing it's job.

It's very good oil at an excellent price. If you run your mix between 35 to 40:1, you'll be alright.

So, what's the problem with the Tecumseh engine? I have one of them on an old used Craftsman single stage I bought just to play with. I put a governor over-ride on it that lets me operate it like a throttle. You'd be amazed how much snow one of those can move when the engine is spinning at 6000 rpm.

 

[Johnny248]

Originally Posted By: troyb43
Try Amsoil Saber 100:1, has worked well in my Echo leaf blower


I have been running Saber 100:1 in : 3 Snow Blowers, 2 Leaf Blowers, and an old out board motor and have NEVER, EVER had a problem with any of them. Of course, I would never run my higher performance quads or anything like that 100:1, I feel totally confident running the Saber at 100:1 in small engines. I've been doing it for over 8 years.

 

[opus1]

Originally Posted By: Warstud
It may smoke a bit....but you can use your 40:1 mixture.
+1

My Toro calls for 50:1 on the gas cap, but the selling dealer recommended running @ 40:1

 

[Pablo]

Amsoil Saber works fine at 100:1. Some people don't like to hear that, but it does fine. If you get paranoid, you can run Amsoil Saber at 50:1, but it will be a bit oily.

Is your engine really shot, or you just don't want to mess with it?

 

[Tdbo]

What I'm looking at is a way that I can get rid of at least one of the 2 cycle cans that I have now (if not 2) and ideally find one mix that I can use on everything. Would not mind using the Echo on everything if I can safely do so (even though I have a ton of QS 2 cycle oil as well as a couple of other brands.)

 

[Tdbo]

I figure the life expectancy of what is basically a MTD snowblower has to be about what I got out of it. I really like to use 2 cycle engines whenever possible and I figured that I probably had better grab a newer model while the getting is good. I was told that next year will be the last year that Toro will make a blower with a 2 cycle engine, and everyone else has pretty much made the transition to 4 cycle.

 

[Tdbo]

Good information. I may try the rest of the 40:1 I have in it and see how it does.

 

[Panzerman]

I agree with everything Boraticus said, except that you should use a tcw3 oil. After alot of research, I finding that the TC rated oil is much better for a air cooled engine. Even if it has a FB rating. Echo and alot of your small air cooled engine two stoke oils by the manufacturer are all TC rated oils. Ima a big two stroke lover and the full throttle advice is Great advice, they like to be abused.

 

[Bror Jace]

Panzerman, a TCW3 oil in an air-cooled engine? Even in hot weather? I can see them being used in the winter ... but in hot weather, I think you'd need that extra protection metallic adds provide (not available in TCW3).

 

[Craig in Canada]

I'll pitch in to support Amsoil Saber as an excellent two stroke oil. My Echo branded equipment runs better and starts easier on it than with the echo oil. It also smells better and makes less mess.

I typically run it at 50:1, however, because I'm conservative. I have tried 75-80:1 for a little bit after lots of reading. The trimmer ran even better, as far as I could tell. It probably would be fine but I'm back to 50:1.

I would NOT start messing around with TC-W3 vs. JASO FD (or outboard vs. air cooled).

Toro probably calls for TC-W3 because of the lower temperatures involved in typical winter operation. This doesn't apply to the rest of your equipment. I know it'll be a pain, but I would keep them separate. In the spring, throw your extra TC-W3 premix in your car or something. I don't think you want to mess with your Toro warranty and run air-cooled oil in it and I don't think you should run lower-temp TC-W3 in your hot weather power equipment. Amsoil is "pushing the envelope" with their recommendation of 100:1 in everything and even they still have two temperature formulas - ATP and ATO.

I find it funny that some will say "don't listen to those 50:1-in-everything people, run what the engine manufacturer tell you to!" but then turn around any advise to ignore air vs. water cooled oil formula differences.

Ratios are always a hot debate topic. Some equipment specifying large amounts of oil was made along time ago when oils were inferior, or they are making recommendations based on the lowest common denominator of oil quality. Unless it's a specialized application, I would expect that you could run somewhere in the 40-50:1 range in just about everything with a top quality oil like Saber. Amsoil says you can run 100:1 in ANYTHING for COMMERCIAL use. If you believe them, they say they've been recommending 100:1 for their top oils since 1973. That's almost 40 years where they could have backed away from that recommendation if their customers were reporting engine damage. Targeting 50:1 with Saber is already conservative without bringing 32:1 into the discussion.

 

[Panzerman]

Originally Posted By: Bror Jace
Panzerman, a TCW3 oil in an air-cooled engine? Even in hot weather? I can see them being used in the winter ... but in hot weather, I think you'd need that extra protection metallic adds provide (not available in TCW3).
That is what I was saying, Boraticus said use a TCW3 oil, I agree with everything he said BUT that, I would opt for a TC rated oil in a air cooled engine. Before I knew better I was using a TCW3 oil in my little Yamaha DT175, that I ride on the road, it sounded loud,pingy and clanky. I switched to a Kawasaki 2 stroke oil, low ash, TC rated oil and it runs so much smoother and quieter, its unbelievable.

 

[Panzerman]

I think the ratio depends more on the oil you are using than what the manufacture suggests. The manufacturer has to cover a broad range and be on the safe side, some manuals even permitted the use of SAE 30 oil in place of two cycle oil. When I used to buy new dirt bikes, they had stickers on the back fender that stated 32:1. I ussually ran Yamalube 2R at 40:1, I tried Belray MC1+ at 50:1, I never lost a engine or crank. I think there is a wide variance, just about anything between 20:1 and 60:1 will surfice. Much like the oil debate of 5w20 to 10w40, its just not that big of a deal. On a high performance motocross bike, it would effect jetting, but a low performance snow blower or lawnmower will just smoke more or less and maybe slobber. There is no way, I would ever run 100:1 in any two stroke, just not going to happen with me.

 

[Pablo]

Originally Posted By: Panzerman
There is no way, I would ever run 100:1 in any two stroke, just not going to happen with me.


And that's fine. It's YOUR decision. I do have a real problem with self deemed experts here saying it won't/can't work. It can and does work just fine. Some of these people don't even know the 2T tests are run as mixed, not on the unmixed oil.

I say talk to all the satisfied Opti-2 folks.
I say talk to all the satisfied Amsoil folks.

 

[boraticus]

What's the worst that could happen using TC-3 rather than TCW-3 in an air cooled engine?

I'd say that Toro recommends TCW-3 probably for environmental reasons. TCW-3 produces less ash thus easier to me EPA requirements. That's the main reason for using it in outboards. It reduces contaminants going into the water.

For those people who are comfortable running 100:1 oil to fuel ratios, have at it.

For those who choose to use more oil in their fuel, they can rest assured that their engine will appreciate it by producing more power and living longer.

Why? More oil in the mix will provide a better seal for the rings thus make for better compression and more power. Bearings like oil. The more the better and let's not forget that the oil in the fuel is all that they get.

I'd say the main reason Amsoil and manufacturers of other costly oils suggests using their two cycle oil at 100:1, is to justify the price.

 

[JTK]

I do know that the higher dollar premium 2-cycle oils like Amsoil can be run much leaner than less expensive oils. Depending on how the engine is used, most will live long happy lives on that oil at 100:1

That said, boraticus would have a 2-cycle powered blender and toothbrush if he got the go-ahead from the front office. He's got a lot of experience with this stuff and is a great resource.

tdbo, my BIL has the same little gray Craftsman single stage machine with the little Tecumseh 2cycle. I've used it a few times. It's very light and easy to fling around, but sure doesn't toss snow like a Toro.

Joel

 

[demarpaint]

Lots of good advise, especially this!

Originally Posted By: boraticus

DO NOT run your equipment at 100:1. That's simply bad advice for an air cooled engine. I don't care what kind of oil is used.

 

[Pablo]

Originally Posted By: demarpaint
Lots of good advise, especially this!

Originally Posted By: boraticus

DO NOT run your equipment at 100:1. That's simply bad advice for an air cooled engine. I don't care what kind of oil is used.




Are you saying this because you know what you are talking about or you just agree with things that go against Amsoil as usual?