Snow Tires Without Studs Are Worthless.
- Thread starter Ws6
- Start date
gathermewool
Site Donor 2023
Again: turbo Subaru Forester XT with snow tires + snow + boost = woohoo!
Same same with A/S tires = I’d better be wearing my brown pants!!!
Another repeat! My Civic plowed through the same snow with snow tires that my Forester with A/S tires got stuck in. They were parked right next to each other.
IME, my anecdote > your tests.
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Dads company vehicles have to go out even in a blizzard. Michelin X ice tires go on them in winter, and back to summer tires come April. Put those on, no studs, and be prepared for a mind blowing driving experience. Don't buy junk tires, and your problems are over.
Mazda limits boost in 1st and 2nd to prevent craziness below 20*F, annoyingly enough. That said, this is how A/S tires with nearly worn out tread work in the snow:
I didn't do this from 60km (37mph) but rather from (17mph), but you can see even nearly worn out, it stopped just fine and acceleration was at least as good as the snow tires in the vid posted at the top of this page, if not better.
Fine, glued to the snow. You have to actually push the tire hard enough to spin them/slid them to tell a difference, and just going around a flat and level "block" isn't going to cause either to spin or slide. You need steep hills, or to really be hooning around, slamming the brakes at 60mph and doing lane changes, etc. That actually will cause me to slide some, but my car has great stability and yaw control so even though these are horribly unadvised maneuvers, a lane change while slamming the brakes at 45-55mph is still safe and does what the driver intends, albeit the stability control kicks in some.
The only way to exceed the performance of my worn A/S tires was my 27% grade hill with 8" of snow. That did exceed their ability with their shallow by then tread depth. Driving on the freeway and back roads with snow both packed and loose/undriven was a non-event except when I was hooning about doing panic lane changes at 45-55mph. The stability/yaw control did activate for that, but the maneuver was controlled and effective, nonetheless. Even on glare ice the car accelerated just fine, but as you can tell, stopping and turning was...not good. Need studs for that.
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Did those really get made back in 1996? The WS-50 was my first experience with winter tires. Got them for my Mazda Protege back in 2008 and wow what an experience. I had super confidence taking that vehicle out in any condition and even the worst of snowstorms felt like driving on a gravel road. Only cost $60 per tire too.
Only had that car for 3 more seasons so never knew how long they would last. Super rare now for any tire model to have a production run for over a decade.
Sound advice from a guy named Traction.
No you do not.
Continental makes good snow A/S tires, among A/S tires. ANY snow tire will leave that tire in dust! Give me FWD with snow tires, and you won't be able to catch up. I am not going to even discuss handling or braking, which is actually what matters when it comes to accidents in snow. Take your Mazda where I took my BMW yesterday, and you won't even make it over that pass.
The winter tire does have a small advantage, like I said, when you push them hard, but not enough to trade 355 days of performance for 9 days of 10% better performance, plus half the tread life (or issue of swapping). Just not real advantage, considering my all seasons do great.
I have no idea where you went yesterday, lol
LOL, sure. I mean if you need confirmation bias for your purchase, yeah, we can all say that they are best thing after sliced bread so you feel better.
But on this planet, reality, no.
We are getting up to 48 inches of snow on Saturday. I will be going getting my espresso, those with A/S tires won't, LX25 or not.
I can reach out to people where you are. I'll inquire. Now I'm curious. Name of thebpass?
What do you drive with that kind of clearance, a unimog?
Despite running winter tires myself, I'm going to have to agree with you there. There's some places that get light snowfall, but not enough days out of the year where it's bad enough to warrant having winter tires. Some places get maybe a weeks worth of snow days in a year, and the rest of the time is dry/raining.
I know the winter tire Nazi's will disagree, but if the driving you do is low speed, relatively flat, and in a mild snow climate....all seasons are perfectly fine. Prior to the 2000's, winter tires weren't that popular and most people got around with all seasons.
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I purposely bought some xice2's for the Subaru because they are a good enough winter tire with awd for logging roads, and a good all-season tire on the wet or dry winter highways. Key thing for me though in the winter is having a squared off shoulder on the tread, as this allows the tire to dig down when sliding sideways. Even if all seasons can match acceleration and braking grip of winter tires, the squared shoulder will help scrub speed if things "go sideways" on the road.
My experience with winter tires vs all season across different climates and vehicles over the years has been varied. The generalization overall about winter tires being better in winter conditions holds true for me on average, but specific examples certainly are outside of that. I have not ever had or driven on studded tires, so my experience is only unstudded winter tires.
Many years ago, I lived in Vancouver. Very mild climate, maybe saw snow of any significance a couple of times a year. In my early years of driving, I certainly saw no need to have winter tires, the thought never even crossed my mind, except on those odd days the snow came down.
I found I could generally navigate the snow with no problems if my all season tires had good tread. As soon as that turned to ice, that was a different story, but knowing how your car behaves went a long way in allowing you to make the best of it. Regardless of how good you were and how capable your car was, it just did not change your ability (or lack thereof) to stop on ice.
Fast forward a few years when my work location changed to the Fraser Valley, where the rest of the area could be experiencing rain, and there would be white-out blizzard conditions there. By this time, winter tires had evolved significantly beyond the old Firestone Town and Country days. I figured it was worth trying out. And it was night and day. The early part of the winter, I was still running all season tires on my 1993 Civic, and on icy or snowy days (quite light dusting), the traction was what you would expect. Nothing spectacular, probably marginal in hindsight, but I had never experienced anything different.
Then the first big dump of snow came several weeks later, and by this time, I had my first winter tire set ever. Police were advising people to stay home, no one wanted to venture out. Except for me, I wanted to put these to the test. And did they ever perform. I could not get the car to lose traction with any sort of maneuver all the way up to moderately aggressive (beyond that, I got them to lose traction as expected). That sold me, even in the generally mild climate there, that these were worth the investment, as I didn't want to be dictated by weather if I could or could not go somewhere, much less be stranded at work after an unexpected dump. They made a difference on frosty road surfaces too, and over time, the total tire cost wasn't much more having two sets versus just an all season set. I drove enough to wear both sets out before they aged out.
Beyond the mostly small front drive cars in my early driving days, I also had the experience of having FWD minivans, FWD mid-size sedans, and most recently an AWD SUV and 4x4 one ton truck. And over time, tried many different winter tires (and some all weather), ranging from bargain basement to those touted as top tier. There was a very loose and inconsistent correlation between price and performance, with many examples of that correlation not holding true. Several rental vehicles and service loaners, as well as those of extended family have also fed into my experience with different vehicles and tires. I now live in a climate where winter seems to take up the better part of the year, and my biggest foe is the almost always present ice in all its incarnations.
So what did I observe? If the all season tires were very good (as far as all seasons go) in winter conditions, then I certainly had the feeling they could match, if not outperform the poorest winter tires I've ever used.
The "average" winter tire, those so unremarkable, I don't really remember anything good or bad about, were miles ahead of the best all seasons, but still clearly showed their shortcomings.
And then there were the exceptional standouts. Phenomenal traction, making it virtually impossible to lose control of a vehicle except in moves that could lose control in good weather as well.
A side note tire for me is the all-weather/all-terrain tire on my truck. Certainly no ice performer, but this truck will not see enough miles before one set ages out, which is why I went this route. Top that off that I have extremely limited need in the winter to drive it, and when I do need to, I have the luxury of choosing not to take it when weather is bad.
So yes, I can see the OP finding many examples where there really is no edge to having the mediocre unstudded winter tires, compared against the best all season tires. But I also have many examples of average to excellent winter tires far outperforming the best all season tires.
And FWIW, one of the worst winter tires I had was one touted as top-tier: Michelin X-Ice Xi3. I absolutely hated them on the two different vehicles I had them on, and would experience wheel spin starting from every traffic light, every time, and ABS kicking in almost every time I wanted to stop, no matter how gently and cautiously I drove.
Many years ago, I lived in Vancouver. Very mild climate, maybe saw snow of any significance a couple of times a year. In my early years of driving, I certainly saw no need to have winter tires, the thought never even crossed my mind, except on those odd days the snow came down.
I found I could generally navigate the snow with no problems if my all season tires had good tread. As soon as that turned to ice, that was a different story, but knowing how your car behaves went a long way in allowing you to make the best of it. Regardless of how good you were and how capable your car was, it just did not change your ability (or lack thereof) to stop on ice.
Fast forward a few years when my work location changed to the Fraser Valley, where the rest of the area could be experiencing rain, and there would be white-out blizzard conditions there. By this time, winter tires had evolved significantly beyond the old Firestone Town and Country days. I figured it was worth trying out. And it was night and day. The early part of the winter, I was still running all season tires on my 1993 Civic, and on icy or snowy days (quite light dusting), the traction was what you would expect. Nothing spectacular, probably marginal in hindsight, but I had never experienced anything different.
Then the first big dump of snow came several weeks later, and by this time, I had my first winter tire set ever. Police were advising people to stay home, no one wanted to venture out. Except for me, I wanted to put these to the test. And did they ever perform. I could not get the car to lose traction with any sort of maneuver all the way up to moderately aggressive (beyond that, I got them to lose traction as expected). That sold me, even in the generally mild climate there, that these were worth the investment, as I didn't want to be dictated by weather if I could or could not go somewhere, much less be stranded at work after an unexpected dump. They made a difference on frosty road surfaces too, and over time, the total tire cost wasn't much more having two sets versus just an all season set. I drove enough to wear both sets out before they aged out.
Beyond the mostly small front drive cars in my early driving days, I also had the experience of having FWD minivans, FWD mid-size sedans, and most recently an AWD SUV and 4x4 one ton truck. And over time, tried many different winter tires (and some all weather), ranging from bargain basement to those touted as top tier. There was a very loose and inconsistent correlation between price and performance, with many examples of that correlation not holding true. Several rental vehicles and service loaners, as well as those of extended family have also fed into my experience with different vehicles and tires. I now live in a climate where winter seems to take up the better part of the year, and my biggest foe is the almost always present ice in all its incarnations.
So what did I observe? If the all season tires were very good (as far as all seasons go) in winter conditions, then I certainly had the feeling they could match, if not outperform the poorest winter tires I've ever used.
The "average" winter tire, those so unremarkable, I don't really remember anything good or bad about, were miles ahead of the best all seasons, but still clearly showed their shortcomings.
And then there were the exceptional standouts. Phenomenal traction, making it virtually impossible to lose control of a vehicle except in moves that could lose control in good weather as well.
A side note tire for me is the all-weather/all-terrain tire on my truck. Certainly no ice performer, but this truck will not see enough miles before one set ages out, which is why I went this route. Top that off that I have extremely limited need in the winter to drive it, and when I do need to, I have the luxury of choosing not to take it when weather is bad.
So yes, I can see the OP finding many examples where there really is no edge to having the mediocre unstudded winter tires, compared against the best all season tires. But I also have many examples of average to excellent winter tires far outperforming the best all season tires.
And FWIW, one of the worst winter tires I had was one touted as top-tier: Michelin X-Ice Xi3. I absolutely hated them on the two different vehicles I had them on, and would experience wheel spin starting from every traffic light, every time, and ABS kicking in almost every time I wanted to stop, no matter how gently and cautiously I drove.
Problem with those tire is tread design. It is designed for cleaned roads, black ice etc. It is unfortunate that Michelin did not leave Xi2 design with updated compound. I know that on Xi2 Latitude they updated compound from Xi3, and compared to Blizzak DM-V2 I also had, I would take Latitude Xi2 any time. But Xi3 is very sketchy. On AWD they are good, but FWD and especially RWD owners did not like them precisely bcs. of reason you mentioned. Deep snow, especially slush was not their thing.
