Snow Tires Without Studs Are Worthless.

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12,109
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Colorado Springs
Not in my opinion.

We are getting dumped on today pretty heavily.
Luckily my wife and I don't need to go anywhere, but the Abarth has WS-80's on it, and the Giulia has WS-90's on it.
The CX-5 that I just gave to my wife's daughter has Yokohama IG-52's on it.

If you're straddling the edge of winter and spring in Colorado, just have the snow tires on.
You're going to need them.

BC.
Well, not the point I was making. I get all that. I like to have tires that are still capable to go in this weather or the one we had during bombgenesis. But, the fact is, weather here is really hard on snow tire bcs. as you know, sometimes this week we will be driving with open windows.
 
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5,371
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down in the park
The 3PMSF doen't mean much really. For example, the Michelin CrossClimate SUV is a 3PMSF "all weather" tire. It does worse in snow than the LX25 in objective testing.
Maybe, but I've never had any issues in snow with the crossclimates and FWD. That said, I think across all 3pmsf tyres vs non, the former will do better
 
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12,109
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Colorado Springs
So, ended up with 43" in front of house. Plowed with Tiguan as was not interested in shoveling around 5am just so I can get out to drive kids to daycare.
Later shoveled, helped two elderly neighbors, and probably shed 10lbs in process. Sun is out, so strong that I drove with sunroof tilted.
 
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705
Location
WV
There. I said it. They're an expensive, short-lived rip-off. I know, I know, I done gone and attacked a sacred cow...but I can do it with both personal experience, and data. I first came to this conclusion after buying Nokian WRG3 SUV tires. They didn't do a darn thing in the ice and snow better than my LX20's that were near worn out, at the time. They were loud. They hydroplaned. They handled poorly. And to top it off, they didn't grip any better at all in snow and ice.

FFWD a few years and I changed vehicles, and got some CrossContact LX25's. These things make my AWD SUV a true tank in the snow (albeit a light one...). So it got me to wondering...why the heck do people bother with snow tires if they won't stud them? I looked at the data, and I think the only reason they do it is because they are stuck in the past when it mattered more/older technology was prevalent, or because they are just super susceptible to marketing.

First, this is a short video of me driving with my LX25's. Solid.

Next up is the data. We are sadly not able to compare on the same day, or same vehicle, but part of the "Snow tires! YOU NEED THEM!" argument is also predicated on "Your vehicle doesn't matter, AWD doesn't matter, FWD with snows all day long over All-season and AWD!".

The only category in which the true snow tires bested the CrossContact LX25 was "stopping on ice", and both were pretty dismal, with a roughly 25% advantage to the snow tire. Stopping on snow, actually favored the LX25 over the snow tires. You will note that 20mph was used for the snow stop with snow tires, and 25, for the all-seasons, making the LX25's victory all that much more impressive.

The sedan with true snow tires performed worse lap times than the Q5 2.0 with LX25's.




So again, if we are to argue about things other than tires...doesn't this also defeat the "Snow tires are better than even the best AWD blah blah blah..." argument? It really paints the "Snow tires are best" crowd into a nasty corner where you're forced to admit that what vehicle you drive, even of similar weight, etc. matters more than snow tires or not, or to admit that a good all season is just as good as a snow tire. Either way, I won't ever be buying snow tires unless they are studded, because both my experience, and empirical data, seems to indicate that they are pretty poor purchase choices. I'll stick with quality AWD vehicles and excellent all season tires because:

-All wheel drive and a good system helps with a myriad of situations and is always there for you.
-All season tires last a lot longer and typically cost less (As you note, the ones in my video are 45K miles old and still doing great).
-All season tires are much safer in the rain typically, and handle better, are quieter, and ride better.
Not in my experience. Wrg4 suv on a 2012 gx460 amd 2021 Highlander Hybrid awd are just as good as the best snow tires I've used.
 
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362
Location
BC Canada
So in short, you're saying my 27% grade (at the steepest, it vacillates around a 17 degree incline)gravel driveway section (300ft of linear travel) being easy to get up with worn tires at 3-4" of snow, but stumping me with 6-8" of snow, isn't shabby?

Now you've got me curious on the grades of the roads indrive. I have only properly measured my driveway.
Yes, your tires are doing excellent to get up that. Our driveway from the road goes uphill at maybe 4%, then goes through a gradual dip, then climbs again before our house at maybe 5%. Yes we have a very long driveway, over 600'.
 
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3,475
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Parts Unknown
Agreed. Just saying a good all season may be better than an all weather 3pmsf tire.
TireRack basically says Michelin CrossClimates (SUV) is overrated by the internet forums and some youtube channels (ie Engineering Explained).

At least that bloke on Tyre Reviews youtube channel gets it right about the CrossClimate's.. as he refers it to as "Summer focused" (european) all-season vs other tires being "Winter focused" (european) all-season, as the Cross Climates have large tread blocks with not much in terms of siping, just long straight sipes. Although the CC2's have some edgier siping in the center of the tread blocks.
 
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down in the park
Well, I used them for 6 winters, and we had some recent users here aswell. The benefit for me was that I don't take much of a hit when there's no wintery conditions. This has been more apparent now because I had a sidewall rupture and replaced 2 fronts with european winters. They are not good in wet or dry, car's g-sensor agrees.
 

Ws6

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3,807
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South Central US
Yeah, they close down street often bcs. A/S and A/T tires on cars. Often before they shut down, some who would stop while going up would actually slide down.
For snow tires and AWD? not a problem. For snow tires and FWD as long as car is moving (tried with VW CC) not a problem, but not as easy as with AWD obviously.
Reached out to my contact in Cripple Creek. They have no issues with their Venza on directional Toyo Proxes.maybe Cripple Creek doesn't have the slopes or snow you do?
 
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12,109
Location
Colorado Springs
Reached out to my contact in Cripple Creek. They have no issues with their Venza on directional Toyo Proxes.maybe Cripple Creek doesn't have the slopes or snow you do?
Many people drive here on A/S tires or A/T tires. Define what is problem? Yesterday we got quick 8 inches of wet snow over wet surface that turned into ice. Intersection few miles from here, that takes to big artery got clogged bcs. people could not move from standstill while waiting for red light. One person on neighborhood FB page said: it is bit bad, I was slipping some time until getting grip, but not so bad. So, what that means? Most people think about not having problem moving forward. For me that is irrelevant. What matters whether they will stop at red light while I am going through green light. And that is where problems are.
10 days ago when we got big storm, neighbor was calling over FB for someone to come pick him and wife and two kids in Black Forest fire station bcs. their Explorer got off the road and stuck in the ditch. Kids had to sleep on floor as that fire station is not always open, very small, so no appropriate accommodation. So, define problem? Some people do not get out during big snow, slippery conditions etc.
But that is why we now have law that says that if you are responsible for lane closure on interstate, fines are going above $1,000. Directly aimed at A/S and A/T tire owners as it came out as compromise from proposed legislation to require actual snow tires (not just 3PMSF) after 68 car pile up on I70 EB before Denver where you have 8% grade for several miles and it was downhill.
 

Ws6

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Messages
3,807
Location
South Central US
Many people drive here on A/S tires or A/T tires. Define what is problem? Yesterday we got quick 8 inches of wet snow over wet surface that turned into ice. Intersection few miles from here, that takes to big artery got clogged bcs. people could not move from standstill while waiting for red light. One person on neighborhood FB page said: it is bit bad, I was slipping some time until getting grip, but not so bad. So, what that means? Most people think about not having problem moving forward. For me that is irrelevant. What matters whether they will stop at red light while I am going through green light. And that is where problems are.
10 days ago when we got big storm, neighbor was calling over FB for someone to come pick him and wife and two kids in Black Forest fire station bcs. their Explorer got off the road and stuck in the ditch. Kids had to sleep on floor as that fire station is not always open, very small, so no appropriate accommodation. So, define problem? Some people do not get out during big snow, slippery conditions etc.
But that is why we now have law that says that if you are responsible for lane closure on interstate, fines are going above $1,000. Directly aimed at A/S and A/T tire owners as it came out as compromise from proposed legislation to require actual snow tires (not just 3PMSF) after 68 car pile up on I70 EB before Denver where you have 8% grade for several miles and it was downhill.

I've not found stopping or turning to be an issue if you use even a modicum of planning/common sense, unless of course you hit glare ice, in which case, studs or no dice. 8% grade down hill on snow is just fine, at least in my experience. Now ice? NO WAY.
 
Messages
12,109
Location
Colorado Springs
I've not found stopping or turning to be an issue if you use even a modicum of planning/common sense, unless of course you hit glare ice, in which case, studs or no dice. 8% grade down hill on snow is just fine, at least in my experience. Now ice? NO WAY.
What you talking here does not work in real life. What common sense? Downhill on snow is fine as long as you do not have anyone with better tires in front of you (and snow tires are better tires in snow), you do not have curve, you do not have car turning onto street etc. What if kids sled and kid runs onto street? Every ft counts in those conditions, and best performing tires when it comes to braking in snow are snow tires. That is not how life works. Whenever is snowing here I crawl through green light bcs. of "common sense" people that suddenly realize there is no such thing as planning in snow. I am not going to even entertain that idea in actual mountains. There weather changes in 30 min. I would hit the road to ski, no snow in weather prediction, nothing clear sky, just to find myself in some localized blizzard on I70 that creates havoc for some hour on interstate (which is mostly due to rental cars from DIA not having snow tires or some 18-wheeler driver who thinks he can outrun storm without putting chains). Mountains are not plains where you can predict weather for days in advance. Just watch new documentary done by MotorTrend "Pikes Peak on the Edge" how teams last August were calculating in minutes before ice storm comes etc.
Ice? So you are going to plan around ice on 10,000ft? I have seen ice in the Rockies during EVERY month of the year, as well as snow. So what do you think what is likelyhood you will encounter ice in the city where altitude ranges from 5,600ft to 7,800ft, where some suburban areas are as high as 9,000ft, where sun is so strong that it melts snow in couple of hours from pavement, turns into water, standing water, and then temperature drops into teens or lower during night? Most snow in my area (south of Palmer DIvide, some 20mls north toward Denver. North of Palmer DIvide snow is more prevalent in the fall) comes end of February to end of April. I cannot remember single day in last month where I did not encounter ice on the roads driving kids to daycare.
My philosophy is: have tires ready for black ice, glare ice, full blown blizzard, wet snow, ski powder etc. If tires cannot do that, they are garbage for those conditions.
 
Messages
1,513
Location
Dacono, CO
Yup, everyone has an opinion on if they like or don't like snow tires.
I also live in Colorado, and I agree that it is much, much better of an idea to have good quality snow tires on your vehicle here.

I can decide to hop in my car, and go blasting up Highway 7 to the Peak to Peak, and go for a nice drive in the middle of the night, without having to worry about road conditions catching me by surprise, and I can take any canyon back down, whether it be Lefthand, Boulder, Coal Creek, Golden Gate, or Clear Creek. If I want to go up and have a ball on Squaw Pass, I can do that, too.

The night that my wife and I brought home the Giulia, I was on Tire Rack figuring out which wheel and winter tire set to buy for it.
The tires arrived 3 days before a 2 foot snow storm hit town, and you bet that I had them installed on the car and ready to go.
My wife's Abarth also had its snow tires on, and ready to go, too, so we could even pick and choose which car to take without having to worry about road conditions.

But the most important reason why I have snow tires is so that I can avoid all the people who are not prepared for the road conditions around here, and are sliding around, can't maintain their lane around a curve, or can't stop at an intersection.
If you don't think snow tires will help you in snowy conditions, and you're better off with all seasons, good for you.
Just don't drive behind me, because I don't want to meet you.
 
Messages
12,109
Location
Colorado Springs
Yup, everyone has an opinion on if they like or don't like snow tires.
I also live in Colorado, and I agree that it is much, much better of an idea to have good quality snow tires on your vehicle here.

I can decide to hop in my car, and go blasting up Highway 7 to the Peak to Peak, and go for a nice drive in the middle of the night, without having to worry about road conditions catching me by surprise, and I can take any canyon back down, whether it be Lefthand, Boulder, Coal Creek, Golden Gate, or Clear Creek. If I want to go up and have a ball on Squaw Pass, I can do that, too.

The night that my wife and I brought home the Giulia, I was on Tire Rack figuring out which wheel and winter tire set to buy for it.
The tires arrived 3 days before a 2 foot snow storm hit town, and you bet that I had them installed on the car and ready to go.
My wife's Abarth also had its snow tires on, and ready to go, too, so we could even pick and choose which car to take without having to worry about road conditions.

But the most important reason why I have snow tires is so that I can avoid all the people who are not prepared for the road conditions around here, and are sliding around, can't maintain their lane around a curve, or can't stop at an intersection.
If you don't think snow tires will help you in snowy conditions, and you're better off with all seasons, good for you.
Just don't drive behind me, because I don't want to meet you.
Those are common sense people (and I am not talking about WS6). Everyone on all seasons or A/T tires immediately talk common sense when start arguing why they do not have snow tires.
 
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