Snow tire question

[rslifkin]

Depending on what I've got for extra money, I'll be picking up a set of snows for the Jeep either a little later this winter, or next fall. I'm torn between 2 tires, and I'm not sure whether it's worth getting the studded one, or staying studless. Choices are down to the studded Nokian Hakka 7 and the studless Nokian Hakka R (both will be 245/70R16).

The one thing that has me leaning away from the studs is the noise, which might lead to me taking them off for road trips in the middle of winter (if the weather is good) and simply bringing them along just-in-case, provided I have space for them.

Most of the winter, I'm in Rochester, although I do make a couple of trips back and forth to CT (for Thanksgiving and Christmas) and spend a week or 2 there each time.

Any thoughts on which would be better?

 

[AuthorEditor]

Well, the studs definitely help when the roads are icey, but they are noisy and I would find that annoying as even in the winter 90% of my driving (upstate NY) is on clear roads. If I lived in the rural Adirondacks I might think differently. Also, I pretty routinely take longer road trips in the winter and it would be a huge pain to change out the tires.

 

[QuietPortage]

I've never needed dedicated snows with a four wheel drive vehicle in NY. On my old RWD Volvo and FWD Corolla, yes. They were studded Nokian Hakks as a matter of fact.

How about a better set of all-terrains? With your Jeep, I would get a set of high quality ATs and run then year-round. I drive a Tahoe, Explorer, and F-150 during all weather conditions. The best I've found are the Goodyear Wrangler SilentArmors. They're fantastic in all winter driving, but not so soft that you can't run them year round. They're on all of our work vehicles now.

 

[skyship]

What is the speed limit for studded tyres?? If you are driving on flat terrain and not towing I would just use a top quality M&S winter tyre. Nokian are good, but so are Continental, Dunlop, Goodyear and Michelin winter tyres. This might help decide which one to use, as every size is different in terms of the all important braking figures:
http://www.adac.de/infotestrat/tests/reifen/default.aspx?ComponentId=29895&SourcePageId=0
If you pick tyres that are good in the wet as well as snow, then they can be used all year, BUT will wear rather fast in summer.

 

[rslifkin]

The Hakka 7 studded tires are T rated, so 118 mph. The Hakka R is R rated, so good to 106 (both are plenty fast).

Bandito, that's what I've been doing the last few years (with Destination A/Ts), and while I'm on different, slightly softer A/Ts (Toyo Open Country A/Ts, they are a bit better in the snow from my experience with them on other vehicles) this year, I still don't like the horrendous lack of traction in anything slushy or on icy hardpack. Also, those Wranglers are about $60 more expensive than what I'm running now (per tire, so $300 more for a set of 5), and they don't come in the size I'm running either (255/65R16), so I'd have to change sizes (again).

The Jeep does great in fresh snow, and pretty well overall on A/Ts, but when I'm in a 1/2" of slush and have minimal braking ability and have to throw it in 4wd for it to even move, that's a problem (considering I prefer keeping it in 2wd until I need the extra drive traction, which is usually not until 4 - 6" of fresh snow). Plus, when it's icy, there's nothing worse than getting hit with a wind gust and having the already skittish (in 2wd or 4wd) Jeep that's barely hanging on for traction slide 2 feet sideways while driving 15mph in a perfectly straight line.

Keep in mind, I'm the kind of guy who will go somewhere regardless of the weather unless I physically can't.

Plus, I have a second set of stock rims for this thing, I just have to pull them off the parts Jeep. They just need tires and I'm ready to go.

 

[dparm]

I would go for the Hakka R. Studs are only useful if you live on a mountain that is perpetually covered in snow and ice.

IIRC the Hakka R is rated for ice so it should do okay -- not all winter tires are capable of driving on ice.

 

[SwampSurvivor]

I'd feel better, even with 4WD with a set of snow tires. Remember, the 4WD doesn't help you turn or stop ...

I like the tread pattern on the 7 better.

 

[rslifkin]

Originally Posted By: Miller88
I'd feel better, even with 4WD with a set of snow tires. Remember, the 4WD doesn't help you turn or stop ...

I like the tread pattern on the 7 better.


My thoughts exactly. But the 7 comes pre-studded, so it's either or, running the 7s unstudded isn't an option

 

[dparm]

Snow tires on an AWD car makes it unstoppable, no joke. I ran Blizzak LM25s on my old S4 and that thing was so much fun in the snow.

 

[anonobomber]

I run studless Toyo snow tires on my RWD car every winter and routinely take it up to the mountains and have never had an issue with traction. They grip very well in snow and do pretty well on ice (they have walnut pieces in them for ice traction).

 

[Zaedock]

Originally Posted By: rslifkin
The Jeep does great in fresh snow, and pretty well overall on A/Ts, but when I'm in a 1/2" of slush and have minimal braking ability and have to throw it in 4wd for it to even move, that's a problem (considering I prefer keeping it in 2wd until I need the extra drive traction, which is usually not until 4 - 6" of fresh snow).


Just my opinion, but I will never understand the folks who don't use 4WD in a short wheelbase Jeep in snowy/slushy weather.

By the time you think you "need" it, you'll be wrapped around a pole. Accelerating, decelerating, and cornering are so much better in 4WD.

 

[Zaedock]

Originally Posted By: Miller88
Remember, the 4WD doesn't help you turn or stop ...


4WD definitely helps to stop and turn.

 

[sciphi]

I have a set of the Hakka R's for the Cruze in 215/60-16. Those did quite well in slush last year. Stability was good with those tires, too. There isn't much ice in Rochester since the roads are salted so heavily.

I'd go with the Hakka R since the conditions around Rochester are more slushy/loose snow than ice. Same with most driving conditions along the I-90 corridor.

 

[rslifkin]

Zaedock, it's not a short wheelbase Jeep (Grand Cherokee, not Wrangler). It's nice and balanced in 2wd, and very easy to control, and pretty easy to pull the tail back in when it steps out (it's HARD to spin it, even with me having tuned out most of the understeer). In 4wd, it understeers noticeably, and I can't flick the tail around a turn (which is fun), so I tend to avoid it unless I need it.

Ok, I think I've been convinced. Hakka Rs it is, either in a month or so, or in the fall, depending on money and how bad this winter is.

EDIT: Sciphi, if you're driving around the Rochester area and see a black (dark grey) Grand Cherokee with a bunch of lights on the front and a big antenna (and loud-ish exhaust), give a wave.

 

[SwampSurvivor]

How does 4wd help you stop and turn? Unless you throw the shifter in the lowest gear ... it's not helping at all.

There were many 4wd systems offered in Jeeps. The "full time" systems (aka AWD) were very good in the snow and they can be run in 4x4 on the highway.

Grab any jeep out there with a 231 or 241OR transfer case and drive it in the snow. It'll take off from stoplights great, it'll climb hills ... but it's just going to want to go straight when you turn and when it decides it wants to turn ... it's going to do it as much as it wants.

They're more designed for off road use than high speed snow.

Jeeps (and 4x4 trucks) really aren't as good in the snow as people are lead to believe. Unless it's a huge snow storm and we get 5 feet of snow, I'd much rather have my front drive car with snow tires for slush and hard snow than my Jeep. Trucks have a weight advantage, and that certainly helps.

With that said, we got a good storm a few years ago and I was driving with snow up to the headlights in my Jeep ... clear advantage for it.

I have good A/Ts on my Jeep, but it doesn't see much snow action since I have studded snow tires on my car. If I'm at a stop sign, I almost have to put it in 4x4 to get moving - there's just no weight on the rear of the thing.

 

[rslifkin]

The ZJ is a lot better than an XJ about the weight balance thing, so it's not bad to drive in 2wd in the snow. The later full time 4wd systems on ZJs and the ones on WJs put most or all of the power to the rear wheels until you spin them, so I guess the engineers thought they were ok to drive in 2wd as far as braking and turning.

4wd will help engine braking, but that's it. Normal braking will be pretty much unaffected, and turning will just understeer more, unless you're spinning all 4 tires and rally drifting every turn.

Mine has a 242 t-case, but I find 4fulltime to be a useless mode, as the open center diff causes weird handling problems (understeer on corner entry then snap oversteer once I start to give it throttle). I basically treat it like a 231 (and would have swapped one instead of the 242 when I ditched the 249 if it weren't for the issue of the computer complaining it doesn't know what 4wd mode it's in).

 

[SubLGT]

Originally Posted By: rslifkin
.............I'm torn between 2 tires, and I'm not sure whether it's worth getting the studded one, or staying studless. Choices are down to the studded Nokian Hakka 7 and the studless Nokian Hakka R (both will be 245/70R16).............


If ice traction is your #1 priority, and you have a high tolerance for noise, get the studded H7. In this years testing out of Finland (as published by NAF, etc), the H7 stopped 59 feet shorter than the R in ice braking from 31 mph. The non-studdable "ice and snow" tires, like the HakkaR, WS70, Xi3, etc can have very good ice traction, but it is highly temperature dependent. The colder it gets, the better the "ice and snow" tire performs, with the worst ice traction around 32 degF. When the temperature gets down to approximately 10 degF and lower, the premium non-studdable "ice and snow" tires can have ice traction similar or better than their studded cousins.

 

[Zaedock]

A front pulling wheel will always help you turn. Likewise, the locked drivetrain in a part time system will offer better engine braking (yes, even with an auto). I have never had any problems whatsoever, turning or stopping with a 231, Spicer 18, 20, or 300 'case. That includes my trail rig with a Detroit in the front and spool in the rear.

I haven't met anyone on this forum that can school me on Jeeps and 4WD systems. That's what I do and what I specialize in. Jeeps really are good in snow. It's the people driving that aren't.

 

[Zaedock]

Originally Posted By: rslifkin
Mine has a 242 t-case, but I find 4fulltime to be a useless mode, as the open center diff causes weird handling problems (understeer on corner entry then snap oversteer once I start to give it throttle).


I don't know anyone who has ever liked the 242.

 

[Rand]

a part time 4wd system like what is on a ford ranger is not meant to be in 4wd except offroad and on snow etc.

so crusing along on a dry road in 2wd you hit black ice and spinout before you can get it in 4wd.
There is no center diff. so you get lots of binding.