SM oil issue

[427Z06]

quote:

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Originally posted by Mitch Alsup:
I suspect that a lack of ZDDP is involved.

Where can I find an addtive that is almost completely ZDDP?

Or: Can someone suggest other lubrication issues that might have lead to this situation?

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Do your new camshafts have a phosphate coating to add in break-in? What camshaft break in lube do you use?

To test your ZDDP theory, get some GM EOS to add to the oil in addition to a quality camshaft break in lube.

I suspect your problem is galling during break in.

 

[SlickSam]

(1)
There is "No Such Thing" as an ADDITIVE that is mostly ZDDP. If there were, it would be possible (and very easy) to put "way too much" ZDDP in your engine....and thereby do great harm.

(2) The concentration of ZDDP must be held within a fairly narrow range, if it is to be beneficial. The appropriate concentration depends on many factors, but in general, older engines, and especially "flat tappet" engines require higher concentrations of ZDDP.

Quickly wearing-out of cams is a classic symptom of ZDDP deficiency in the lubricant.

You indicated that you "had no problem with API-SL but that you have been consuming cams since running out (of SL)", so I would say that you apparently need a minimum zinc concentration ABOVE 0.110% (and ditto for Phosphorous)

API-SL had a concentration of Zinc and Phosphorous as follows:

0.110 % Zinc and 0.100% Phosphorous (% by wt.)

API-SM has only:

0.087% Zinc and 0.080% Phosphorous

(SOURCE: HOT ROD Magazine, JUNE 2006 issue).

I work for a company that produces MOTORHEAD Classic Motor oil, which is a Premium Heavy Duty (Non-Synthetic) 15w40 Detergent Motor oil blended specifically for older engines, and which has the following MINIMUM percentages of Zinc and Phosphorous:

MotorHead Classic 15w40
0.250% Zinc and 0.250% Phosphorous.

Alternative product which might also serve you well are as follows :

(Please note, these percentages shown below are "TYPICAL", and not necessarily MINIMUM)

Cosworth Racing: (0.125% zinc and 0.115 Phos)

Shell Rotella: (0.140 % zinc and 0.130 % Phos)

Pennzoil
20W-50 Racing (0.196% Zinc and 0.180% Phos)

Quaker State
Q Racing (0.200 % Zinc and 0.180% Phos)

(Percentages also per HOT ROD Magazine, JUN 06.)

[ August 14, 2006, 03:17 PM: Message edited by: joee12 ]

 

[AndyH]

SlickSam:

to the forum.

Before you run into issues, you might want to edit your post above to remove the "advertising" bit for the MotorHead oil, as it goes against forum rules to post such advertising.

Forum Rules:
http://theoildrop.server101.com/ubb/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic;f=27;t=000031

Specifically...

quote:

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7. Members agree that the use of this forum to further the propagation of “spam” in any way, to flood, to advertise without permission, to participate in chain letters or pyramid schemes, or to otherwise solicit without permission, is absolutely prohibited. Members are cautioned that engaging in any of the described behavior shall be grounds for immediate suspension or termination of membership. Whether or not a member violates this rule, and whether he or she should have their membership suspended or terminated as a result, shall be decided in the sole discretion of the owner or his designated agents. By accepting membership in this forum, members specifically agree that they shall not have any right to have the owner’s decision under this rule reviewed in any way outside this forum.

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I'd hate to see you banned from the forums, as you seem to have some insight into oil formulation.

[ August 14, 2006, 03:34 PM: Message edited by: AndyH ]

 

[427Z06]

quote:

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Originally posted by SlickSam:
API-SM has only:

0.087% Zinc and 0.080% Phosphorous

(SOURCE: HOT ROD Magazine, JUNE 2006 issue).

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Then HOT ROD Magazine is wrong. See my post above.

How do you work for a Motor Oil Company and not know this?

And that's at least the third reference we've seen to the HOT ROD Magazine article.

quote:

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Originally posted by SlickSam:
You indicated that you "had no problem with API-SL but that you have been consuming cams since running out (of SL)", so I would say that you apparently need a minimum zinc concentration ABOVE 0.110% (and ditto for Phosphorous)

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He also stated he used Red Line. I highly doubt Red Line is short on ZDDP.

Sounds to me like you're just trying to hawk your own product.

 

[Ray H]

quote:

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Originally posted by Curious Kid:
...from the used oil analysis that can be found on this site, there doesn't seem to be much to support such concerns...

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Deductive reasoning backed by empirical data - do you realize that makes you a pariah among BITOG's resident urban myth and rumor mongers?

 

[JAG]

Mitch, at this point, I think Mobil's hottest racing oil options are their motorcycle oils. Since you are running 50 weights, you could use their 20W-50 V-Twin oil. It's physical properties are straight out of a David and Goliath story (representing Goliath). For example, pour point of -60F, flash point of 518F, a lot of phosphorus but only 1.0% sulfated ash. I wouldn't mix it with Redline...at least as a first test. See how it does on its own to get a baseline.

 

[SlickSam]

For the purposes of comparing (and understanding)
the "apples and oranges" of Zinc and Phosphorous (ZDDP) content, the following should be understood:

**** 1000 PPM = 0.100 percent by weight *****

( and 600 PPM is ONLY 0.060 percent by weight )


Thus, any oil HAVING ONLY 1000 PPM (Zinc) has in fact LESS ZINC than was typically found in any "SL" rated motor oil, and ONLY A TAD more than the (current) SM oils.

As for "additive packages" , if they don't disclose EXACTLY what they contains, remember this:

If the oil is rated "SM", it has NOT MORE THAN the permitted maximum of 0.087 % zinc (aka: 870 PPM Zinc)

FYI: The REASON that SM oils can be said to "EXCEED" (and can therefore replace) SL and SJ, which in turn can replace SH, is that each of these ratings has a PROGRESSIVELY MORE RESTRICTIVE LIMIT on the allowable levels of Zinc.

So, naturally if the "new" (improved???) SM has a MAXIMUM limit of 0.087% (zinc) it will OF COURSE still "comply with" the previous MAXIMUM limit of 0.110% Zinc that SL "permitted".

Obviously 0.087 is less than 0.110, SO SM RATED OIL THEREFORE MEETS BOTH LIMITATIONS....but what does that MEAN?

It doesn't mean that SM is "better" than "SL"...it is actually MUCH WORSE.....

That is, IF we are talking about engines that NEED more than 0.087% zinc.

The unhappy fact of the matter is this:

Whatever API grade happens to be "current" will always reflect the needs of the engines that are CURRENTLY being manufactured.

Maybe that is as it should be. We owners of older engines simply need to be AWARE of these facts and make the necessary accomodations, like finding an oil that is not rated SM, for example.

Note: while many CURRENT Diesel motor oils have as much or more ZDDP than did SL rated oil (example: Rotella-T). Please note that BEGINNING IN 2007 all new Diesel-engined vehicles must be equipped with CATALYTIC CONVERTERS.

So it is very probable that the levels of Zinc (and of Phosphorous) in Diesel motor oils will be dropping in the near future. We just need to Keep paying attention.

 

[427Z06]

SlickSam the Flim-Flam man...who is it do you think you're bamboozling? Most of the regular members here forgot more about motor oil than you know.

Do us a favor and stop the regurgitated sales routine.

 

[friendly_jacek]

IMO, he just didn't understand the caveat of API:SM vs. GF-4.

 

[427Z06]

quote:

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Originally posted by friendly_jacek:
IMO, he just didn't understand the caveat of API:SM vs. GF-4.

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Which is why his Product, Company and Email address had to be edited out by the admins? Sorry, but IMHO it's obvious he's using scare tactics to hawk his product. And he didn't even stick around long enough to answer the questions I presented. He just dropped a bomb and ran away like a little girl.

 

[dave1251]

Why dont we just make these aftermarket manufactuer's make a high quality cam?

 

[Mitch Alsup]

I want to thank everyone who took the time to recomend various options. I will continue to research each and every one of these options. At this point, I am leaning towards using a straight racing oil or V-TWIN oil, but the GM EOS and a couple of other additives are also in consideration. Thanks again.

 

[toocrazy2yoo]

Well, so if SM is light on the zddp that used to be in SL-rated oil, and certain apps are specc'd for SL because they need the zddp, then how the **** do they get off saying the SM-rated oil is approved as a replacement for all previous spec oil?

Says on my bottles of 5W20 SM Pennzoil that it "Meets/exceeds requirements of ILSAC GF2, 3, 4, and API SM and previous grades". Presumably that would include SF, SJ, SL, yes?

 

[Ray H]

Well, for one thing, the steering committee that slogged out the protection recommendations for SM motor oils was composed of automaker reps as well as oil company reps (who make up the API - duhh...) No where were the aftermarket performance component people who manufacture wild profile camshafts operating with flat tappets and spring loadings that would stop an elephant mid-charge involved. I don't feel sorry for competitive racers who grind a cam down to a toothpick in short order if they use a passenger car motor oil never intended for such duty. There are specially formulated racing blends for their extended duty applications. Better yet, buy a cam/lifter kit that includes roller followers.

 

[toocrazy2yoo]

So, in short, these roller-skate Hyundais I drive don't really NEED the zinc, Ray? The viscosity issue, 0-30, 5W20 doesn't bother me in the least with the SM oil, but owning a car that specs SL, which has a lot of zinc in certain iterations, and moving onto SM oil, which has comparatively little zinc, well, it makes my cams nervous..

Why would the automakers care if I have zinc in my oil, to the point that they would alter the next oil spec? The cat? If it's really the cat they're worried about, is there THAT much oil burned in a brand new car that the cat would be harmed?

 

[Nebraskan]

I think 427Z06 is out of line.

 

[Big Jim]

quote:

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Originally posted by toocrazy2yoo:
So, in short, these roller-skate Hyundais I drive don't really NEED the zinc, Ray? The viscosity issue, 0-30, 5W20 doesn't bother me in the least with the SM oil, but owning a car that specs SL, which has a lot of zinc in certain iterations, and moving onto SM oil, which has comparatively little zinc, well, it makes my cams nervous..

Why would the automakers care if I have zinc in my oil, to the point that they would alter the next oil spec? The cat? If it's really the cat they're worried about, is there THAT much oil burned in a brand new car that the cat would be harmed?

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Zink poisons cat convertors. Cutting down on zinc helps cats last longer.

 

[427Z06]

Good luck Mitch. As mentioned before, I'd seriously look at the cam break-in process. Once the cam and/or lifters/followers are damaged (may not even be easily be visible), no amount of ZDDP in the oil will save them.

Please keep us updated.

 

[427Z06]

quote:

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Originally posted by Nebraskan:
I think 427Z06 is out of line.

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Care to elaborate on why you think such wayward thoughts?

 

[KW]

quote:

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Originally posted by Ray H:
Well, for one thing, the steering committee that slogged out the protection recommendations for SM motor oils was composed of automaker reps as well as oil company reps (who make up the API - duhh...) No where were the aftermarket performance component people who manufacture wild profile camshafts operating with flat tappets and spring loadings that would stop an elephant mid-charge involved. I don't feel sorry for competitive racers who grind a cam down to a toothpick in short order if they use a passenger car motor oil never intended for such duty. There are specially formulated racing blends for their extended duty applications. Better yet, buy a cam/lifter kit that includes roller followers.

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Roller set ups are expensive and a solid flat tappet cam can open the valve faster than a roller. I guess after the intital cost of the lifters and sorting out what profile you wanted to run a roller would be great. In some applications a roller is out of the question like the flathead Fords and Cadillac 500's I have in my shop.

One day I'll build another small Chevy motor and try a roller cam, but for now they cost too much.

I think the SM oil is a big step down as far as oil performance. Now Amsoil has even re-labled some of the oils saying they meet the SM spec. I really hope this is not true or I'll have to re-think the oil I feed the 7 vehicles and 2 motorcycles sitting in the yard.

Ray H, didn't you used to be located in Arkansas?