SM oil issue

Messages
783
Location
Austin Texas
We have a late 1960's air cooled flat 6 race engine (8400 RPMs; 2.0 litres 245 HP) that has started to consume camshafts and followers since we changed* from SL oils. [*]ran out of our stock of SL oils on the shelf. We used to get 100+ hours on a camshaft (3-4 rebuild cycles) and almost never wore out followers. Now a single 3 hour race and the cam has a nice 0.100" deap grove worn in the middle of the lobe where the followers touch and the followers are toast. We had the worn parts checked for hardness and they measured in at spec. This situation occured on a run with M1 15W-50 and with RedLine 15W-50 whereas it did not happen last year under SL oils. I suspect that a lack of ZDDP is involved. Where can I find an addtive that is almost completely ZDDP? Or: Can someone suggest other lubrication issues that might have lead to this situation?
 
Messages
4,478
Location
Southern California
quote:
Originally posted by Trex101: But Redline are not API certify so no reason why they are lowering the ZDDP.
That's a very presumptuous position to take. We have no recent Redline UOAs to verify whether ZDDP is still at previously high levels, so the matter's an open question for lack of documented evidence. (Just because a formulated oil isn't API certified is no reason to conclude it couldn't be. [Wink] )
 
Messages
4,478
Location
Southern California
quote:
Originally posted by deven: i am presuming it has more zddp since its for extended performance
So, how do you account for M1 EP meeting the reduced zinc and phosphorus limits in API SM oils, which all three viscosity grades (5W-30, 10W-30, & 15W-50) do meet according to Mobil's website? [Wink]
 
Messages
3,397
Location
Midwest, Illinois
Street Legal Oil Boost, more commonly known as SLOB. Your local BigLots, 4x ZDDP of SL oils, and cheap. .50 to 1.00 depending on area, and sale rate. For me, SM has begun to mean "SLOB Maintained"
 
Messages
16,159
Location
NE,Ohio
With an air cooled engine I dont think I would use a non syn oil. That has to run hot. On the other hand I doubt redline has changed their formula.
 
Messages
22,187
Location
Colorado Springs
In a high performance motor like that, I would not try and doctor up a concoction of oil and additives to deal with the problem. I would simply find an actual oil that can meet the demands. Even if Redline meets API SM now, they still produce awesome racing oils, as does Royal Purple. I doubt the racing specific oils have reduced ZDDP.
 
Messages
5,785
Location
Dixie
I'd try the Amsoil Series 2000, 20w-50 in this motor which has a very robust additive chemistry and plenty of ZnDTP. I think you'll find it does just fine.... TS
 
Messages
3,562
Location
Massachusetts
quote:
Originally posted by Ray H:
quote:
Originally posted by deven: i am presuming it has more zddp since its for extended performance
So, how do you account for M1 EP meeting the reduced zinc and phosphorus limits in API SM oils, which all three viscosity grades (5W-30, 10W-30, & 15W-50) do meet according to Mobil's website? [Wink]

[I dont know] good question, maybe its just loaded with moly? Anyone know if there are VOA's on Mobil EP SM oils?
 
Messages
6,614
Location
southeast US
quote:
Originally posted by Ray H:
quote:
Originally posted by deven: i am presuming it has more zddp since its for extended performance
So, how do you account for M1 EP meeting the reduced zinc and phosphorus limits in API SM oils, which all three viscosity grades (5W-30, 10W-30, & 15W-50) do meet according to Mobil's website? [Wink]

I checked again, P is ~800, Zn is ~1000 ppm. HDEO is a better bet with 1000-1200 ppm of P (CI-4/SL). The higest P/Zn I have seen was the 25W40 Merc/Quicksilver boat oil (CF-2/CH-4/SJ) with something like 1600 ppm, IIRC. Available in sport/boating stores ($2-3/qt). [ August 12, 2006, 01:09 PM: Message edited by: friendly_jacek ]
 
Messages
1,183
Location
Vermont
I thought it strange when looking at some of the API ratings of some oils - certified as SM, SL, SJ, SH and SG even. I supose it means that it meets and exceeds the protection, but isn't the latest API rating already known to - even the writing in one's owner's manual implies such? Perhaps it's just listed for the customer that needs to SEE it on the lable so they can then feel better about buying it, or simply make-up their mind. [I dont know] This wear debate is a bit nerving, but from the UOA's that can be found on this site, there doesn't seem to be much to support such concerns...atleast not for those with engines that are "relatively" recent technology/material based. I vagely remember the days when I would just change the oil and filter and forget about it till the next change date/mileage - I'd still check levels mind you. Sorry to hear of your troubles Mitch Alsup.
 
Messages
6,614
Location
southeast US
quote:
Originally posted by Curious Kid: I thought it strange when looking at some of the API ratings of some oils - certified as SM, SL, SJ, SH and SG even.
IMHO, API makes a big mistake allowing the newest rating to automatically supersede old ones and making old ones obsolete. This ZDDP issue is a prime example how API should allow old certification like SG (no P limits). The current status pushes some racing/motorbike/boat oil makers to market oils without API certifications. And keeps the unsuspecting public in dark. There are people using mobil 1 oils with 600 ppm P in their old cars or boats with old design engines thinking they are getting the best possible wear protection.
 
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