Are we all in agreement that the use of Mobil 1 EP 5w30 with a 5,000 mile OCI in a known sludger (2001 Toyota 2.2) provides a good measure of protection and margin of safety? Please weigh in so I can sleep at night--thanks!
SLUDGER SOLUTION OPINIONS
- Thread starter MADMIKE
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I have 2 of these sludgers. I feed them dino oil 5w30 at 3000 mile intervals. I have no sludge in either at 78,000 and 105,000
Use the cheaper dino and additize it with some Valvoline synpower oil treatment, which contains extra cleaning additives...
You could also run some MMO (Marvel Mystery Oil) at about 1/2 to 3/4 quart in the colder months. The MMO has solvency capabilities, and should do some cleaning for you. It's not expensive, either...
Another option--and probably what I'd do were I you--is to pour about 6 ounces of SeaFoam into the crankcase about 200 to 300 miles before you change the oil. If you're getting sludge, you should see the oil darken rather quickly (within 100 miles or so) after the SeaFoam goes in. If the oil does not darken, it's likely you don't have sludge issues...
Dan
You could also run some MMO (Marvel Mystery Oil) at about 1/2 to 3/4 quart in the colder months. The MMO has solvency capabilities, and should do some cleaning for you. It's not expensive, either...
Another option--and probably what I'd do were I you--is to pour about 6 ounces of SeaFoam into the crankcase about 200 to 300 miles before you change the oil. If you're getting sludge, you should see the oil darken rather quickly (within 100 miles or so) after the SeaFoam goes in. If the oil does not darken, it's likely you don't have sludge issues...
Dan
I'm in agreement with you MadMike.
Using your schedule, I'm at 65000 and will have pictures at 90k - TB replacement.
Using your schedule, I'm at 65000 and will have pictures at 90k - TB replacement.
I previously did 3,000 mile dino changes but started getting concerned that this wouldn't be enough to prevent sludge--but i guess it would be OK. It's a LOT cheaper to do 3,000 dino than spend almost $6 a quart for Mobil 1 EP every 5,000 miles. Thanks for the input/experience with your sludgers.
There might be other factors, too, like weather, short trips and driving habits.
Another path to take is to clean the engine with Auto-RX and keep it clean. If you need some TBN support you could try Lube Control. Auto-RX is expensive, but works and LC is cheap enough to add an oz every thousand miles. Another plus, with both of these products you can call/email the owners of the company and ask your questions and get answers.
Another path to take is to clean the engine with Auto-RX and keep it clean. If you need some TBN support you could try Lube Control. Auto-RX is expensive, but works and LC is cheap enough to add an oz every thousand miles. Another plus, with both of these products you can call/email the owners of the company and ask your questions and get answers.
I had an 01 V-6 Highlander on a lease for a couple years (great car, bad way to "own" it...). This was within the "sludgemaker window." When I found out about it, and started pushing for details, the quiet recommendation I got from the service manager was to use M1 on a 5k routine. Yes, it's more expensive, but how much so, really? Especially in an otherwise good engine with a confirmed tendency to cook its oil to death under the "right" circumstances. This would not be one of those, "go ahead and use dino, it's good enough" situations. IMO, you specifically want the synthetic base oil's superior ability to resist oxidation at borderline temps, not normally seen in mainstream engines. In addition, I would not bother with the EP formulation, I think the "regular" M1 would do fine for 5k intervals in this engine (it worked for me, anyway).
Whatever you do, be consistently diligent. The baffle design in the oil filler prevents you from getting a good look into the engine. So unless you're willing to go to the bother of removing a head/valve cover, you're flying blind unless you do a UOA from time to time. If you do, watch the insolubles and consult Terry Dyson (IIRC, I think he even owned a sludge era Avalon himself, so I think he'd be a great help).
Enjoy your otherwise great car.
I agree no need for a lot of flushing work just a 3-4K drain with a SL or better a SL/CI-4 oil will do the trick as I have said there is a ring sticking spec in the SL/SM oils and they will do the trick also 3-4K drains will clean out the sludge and debris.
bruce
Even "Consumer Reports" magazine recommends synthetic oil in those engines. Alternately, CR recommends conventional oil with 3000 mile ODI and retain all the receipts for the distinct possibility of a long term warranty claim for the sludging.
I'd use Auto-Rx to clean the engine, then Mobil 1 or other excellent synthetic for the full book oil drain interval. There is no advantage with the long life Mobil 1.
Ken
I'd use Auto-Rx to clean the engine, then Mobil 1 or other excellent synthetic for the full book oil drain interval. There is no advantage with the long life Mobil 1.
Ken
CR never suggested using syn oil in sludge-prone engines; they simply suggested changing dino at the "severe service" intervals and syn at the "normal service" intervals.
3-4K OCI with a SM dino and periodic Auto-RX cleaning is the way to go in these engines IMO.
Mike
3-4K OCI with a SM dino and periodic Auto-RX cleaning is the way to go in these engines IMO.
Mike
Buster,
The RL option:
RL 5w30=$8/quart *5=$40
M1 Oil Filter=$10
Total=$50
How about the low, SM dino option?
Texaco Havoline 5w30=$1.58/qt*5=$7.90
Supertech 3614 Oil Filter=$2.07
Total=$9.97
Thus, RL must last 15,000 miles for it to cost the same to run as dino. In addition, there is no guarantee that RL will last the full 15K in every application, thus the need for analysis to verify and the usage of LC/FP if needed, which will also increase the cost. Lastly, in order to qualify for repairs under Toyota’s sludge warranty, one would have to keep their oil changed every 6mo/5K to prevent an uphill battle with Toyota, which would be a waste of money with RL.
Mike
The RL option:
RL 5w30=$8/quart *5=$40
M1 Oil Filter=$10
Total=$50
How about the low, SM dino option?
Texaco Havoline 5w30=$1.58/qt*5=$7.90
Supertech 3614 Oil Filter=$2.07
Total=$9.97
Thus, RL must last 15,000 miles for it to cost the same to run as dino. In addition, there is no guarantee that RL will last the full 15K in every application, thus the need for analysis to verify and the usage of LC/FP if needed, which will also increase the cost. Lastly, in order to qualify for repairs under Toyota’s sludge warranty, one would have to keep their oil changed every 6mo/5K to prevent an uphill battle with Toyota, which would be a waste of money with RL.
Mike
I like Buster's idea. It's only money after all.
I have a '97 Camry 4-Cyl, one of the Sludge Motors. It was driven in short, around town driving for 7 years, and I changed the oil myself every 3 months, which sometimes did not reach 3K miles. I used Pennzoil dino 10W-30. After 65K miles I had to have the oil pan gasket replaced and at that time verified that the engine was sludge-free. I saw it myself. The Toyota mechanic was complementary, but commented that I needed to use synthetic oil in this engine due to the very high head temps and potential to coke the oil. This was in Apr-2004, and then I joined this forum. Based on all of the good knowledge & advice, I decided that M1 5w30 was a good choice for this engine, and have recently moved to M1 5w30 EP. I did two 3-month oil changes after switching to M1 since it turned dark rather quickly, but now I am on a 6 month OCI and the oil stays a nice honey-color for the whole 6 months. Just recently, at 75K miles / 8.5 years, I had the valve cover gasket replaced and I saw the valve train - it was VERY clean, even in the far corners of the head.
I have never used any additives in the oil, so I can't comment much about them. However, despite what others may say, M1 has a cleaning effect that was proven adequate for my engine.
I agree with the post by ekpolk that you should really consider the high-temp benefits of synth for this sludge-prone engine. I remember being surprised at the rapid darkening of the dino oil in the summer, but not in the winter. I now realize that the dino was being thermally stressed and oxidized. I think that once oil starts to oxidize that it will degrade rather rapidly, so I believe that I was on the edge of sludge buildup with dino, and the 3-month OCI saved it. Synth has a much higher high-temp margin (up to 400F according to Mobil), and I think that it is a better choice for this engine. Besides, it is nice not having to change the oil so often!
Also, be sure that your PCV valve is changed regularly. It is inexpensive and very easy to change - it's right on top of the valve cover on my engine.
Best Wishes as you Motor Along!
I have never used any additives in the oil, so I can't comment much about them. However, despite what others may say, M1 has a cleaning effect that was proven adequate for my engine.
I agree with the post by ekpolk that you should really consider the high-temp benefits of synth for this sludge-prone engine. I remember being surprised at the rapid darkening of the dino oil in the summer, but not in the winter. I now realize that the dino was being thermally stressed and oxidized. I think that once oil starts to oxidize that it will degrade rather rapidly, so I believe that I was on the edge of sludge buildup with dino, and the 3-month OCI saved it. Synth has a much higher high-temp margin (up to 400F according to Mobil), and I think that it is a better choice for this engine. Besides, it is nice not having to change the oil so often!
Also, be sure that your PCV valve is changed regularly. It is inexpensive and very easy to change - it's right on top of the valve cover on my engine.
Best Wishes as you Motor Along!
perfect example of how M1 cleaned some of the sludge out at short OCI now with a real clean engine you can now go longer with still light colored oil.
I agree that correct oil change intervals will result in a clean engine as you have proved valve cover to pan.
Correct about coking syns will resisit that better than old GPI, GPII but with GPIII and the newest additive systems the Gap in perfromance is getting narrower, the new SM will be very good at that no additives needed.
bruce
I agree that correct oil change intervals will result in a clean engine as you have proved valve cover to pan.
Correct about coking syns will resisit that better than old GPI, GPII but with GPIII and the newest additive systems the Gap in perfromance is getting narrower, the new SM will be very good at that no additives needed.
bruce
Yes they did a few months back.Years ago they said syn. was a waste of money but now changed their minds for the sludge prone engines.
I saw this coming back in the late 80's as a tech when we began getting owners manuals with OCI's of 7500 miles. Mobile 1 was some kind of exotic, unproven, mystery to most automotive owners and repairmen alike. Our shop suggested 3k mi/6mo. oil changes as always. Those that chose to go by the book had dirty engines. As engine temps climbed trough the nineties to current the situation got worse, but still little mention of synthetics except on high end autos.
I still say for most cars, not all, but most, a good dino oil with religious maintenance and awareness of short trip driving effects will do just fine.
I still say for most cars, not all, but most, a good dino oil with religious maintenance and awareness of short trip driving effects will do just fine.
Yes they did change their minds about syn and suggested that people use them in sludge-prone engines.
However, never did they say to "change the oil every 3000 miles" in sludge prone engines, they only said to follow the "severe service" interval.
Please read the article again:
Mike
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