that's what happens when I try listening to my wife tell me about a school rule book that has to be read and signed for our kids elementary school, and simultaneous discern and write on matters of lubricity.
Sienna sludge???
- Thread starter OhioSienna
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OhioSienna,
I've used synthetic in my moms car since it was under my ownership/care. Once it was turned over to her/ownership she started using what ever the dealership had on hand. Wether it was Toyota brand oil or not I can't say. Since she passed away recently it's under my care once again using Mobil 1 like it has before. Just the weight is different. Since then it used about a tenth of a quart every month, checking and topping it off every month. Within the last 3 months or so it stopped comsuming oil so although I'm keeping an eye on it the oil is up to the full mark every time now. I have almost 230K on my 89" Camry! Still going strong on that four banger.
In your case I wonder if your leaking oil through the seals? You might have the Toyota dealership check into that.
In addition I've heard also of sludge problems in certain Toyota engines that was so bad the engine just burned up. In either case I'd ask them if they have a dealership may have the chemicals/machinery to flush the engine out for you. Since sludge cases are popping up they must be aware of it and have established some sort of procedure to handle it. If it is your rings then you might try some Lucas "Upper Cylinder Lube"/additive to see if you can repair the problem yourself. In either case you can't hurt your engine with a good flush and replentish the sump with a good synthetic. Persoanlly I'm M1 loyal so I don't want to push any particular oil on you. Castrol might be just as good as M1.
My two cents,
Durango
I've used synthetic in my moms car since it was under my ownership/care. Once it was turned over to her/ownership she started using what ever the dealership had on hand. Wether it was Toyota brand oil or not I can't say. Since she passed away recently it's under my care once again using Mobil 1 like it has before. Just the weight is different. Since then it used about a tenth of a quart every month, checking and topping it off every month. Within the last 3 months or so it stopped comsuming oil so although I'm keeping an eye on it the oil is up to the full mark every time now. I have almost 230K on my 89" Camry! Still going strong on that four banger.
In your case I wonder if your leaking oil through the seals? You might have the Toyota dealership check into that.
In addition I've heard also of sludge problems in certain Toyota engines that was so bad the engine just burned up. In either case I'd ask them if they have a dealership may have the chemicals/machinery to flush the engine out for you. Since sludge cases are popping up they must be aware of it and have established some sort of procedure to handle it. If it is your rings then you might try some Lucas "Upper Cylinder Lube"/additive to see if you can repair the problem yourself. In either case you can't hurt your engine with a good flush and replentish the sump with a good synthetic. Persoanlly I'm M1 loyal so I don't want to push any particular oil on you. Castrol might be just as good as M1.
My two cents,
Durango
Man, I gotta stay out of these sludge threads. I have a very low post count and no real reputation on this board. I get my shorts in a wad when the Toyota sludge issue comes up and I feel it coming on again. I can't help it guys. But my free inspection for the Sienna stands. I am only 2 hours north of Cincinnati.
Eric, how do you know the dealers actually inspected the engines? Well, no one does. I know for a fact that many dealers HATED working on sludge engines and turned them away. We worked on several other dealers sludge monsters, and I stole the customers for life. I refuse to believe most of the clowns that spew inaccurate information and flat out lie about the frequency of their OCI etc. etc. So what if the engine spontaniously sludged after a so called inspection? The repairs were still covered 100%. Toyota does not pay their dealers for a sludge inspection either. It's a repair or nothing. See why some dealers might send a customer packing?
Derek,
(This time I really am writing to Derek) - I didn't realize that was you - had forgotten your user name since that last sludge thread.
OhioSienna, Derek's post count is indeed not indicative of his knowledge of Toyotas - if he is within driving distance of you, you would do well to take him up on his offer. And whatever you do, I wouldn't wait to do it. A qt at 400 is equivalent to pain in the chest and down the left arm !!
(This time I really am writing to Derek) - I didn't realize that was you - had forgotten your user name since that last sludge thread.
OhioSienna, Derek's post count is indeed not indicative of his knowledge of Toyotas - if he is within driving distance of you, you would do well to take him up on his offer. And whatever you do, I wouldn't wait to do it. A qt at 400 is equivalent to pain in the chest and down the left arm !!
Derek (I wrote that last post before reading your last post) -
I see your pt on the sludge chk - but still shame on those dealers that don't thoroughly inspect and tell the user all is well - if that indeed happens - there's a lot of emotion and finger pointing in those testimonials (you get emotional when you sludge on the way to summer vacation).
But in your own words, a 98-2001 Sienna owner should do 5k OCIs or face possible consequences - that alone seems like an indictment against that particular engine. So to say the user aren't truthful, well they may not be truthful but they may not be very far off the truth in their OCI guesses. Plus, the owners manual says 5k severe, 7.5k otherwise. Anyway, in the end Toyota made it right for everyone affected. Props to them.
I see your pt on the sludge chk - but still shame on those dealers that don't thoroughly inspect and tell the user all is well - if that indeed happens - there's a lot of emotion and finger pointing in those testimonials (you get emotional when you sludge on the way to summer vacation).
But in your own words, a 98-2001 Sienna owner should do 5k OCIs or face possible consequences - that alone seems like an indictment against that particular engine. So to say the user aren't truthful, well they may not be truthful but they may not be very far off the truth in their OCI guesses. Plus, the owners manual says 5k severe, 7.5k otherwise. Anyway, in the end Toyota made it right for everyone affected. Props to them.
Derek,
What you say is eerily similar to what my VW service advisor tells me about 1.8T turbo sludge stories. They have never seen a 1.8T with sludge when it has been serviced regularly using the oil specified in the owner's manual. The ones that do sludge usually have spotty oil change receipts and the receipts that do exist are usually from Jiffy Lube. I tend to believe him because one hears similar stories on VW vortex. The sludgers tend to be folks who have no clue what is going on. This is why I always get my oil changed at the dealer and make sure it's documented. If the engine tanks, I'm 100% covered without question.
What you say is eerily similar to what my VW service advisor tells me about 1.8T turbo sludge stories. They have never seen a 1.8T with sludge when it has been serviced regularly using the oil specified in the owner's manual. The ones that do sludge usually have spotty oil change receipts and the receipts that do exist are usually from Jiffy Lube. I tend to believe him because one hears similar stories on VW vortex. The sludgers tend to be folks who have no clue what is going on. This is why I always get my oil changed at the dealer and make sure it's documented. If the engine tanks, I'm 100% covered without question.
Quote:
Derek (I wrote that last post before reading your last post) -
I see your pt on the sludge chk - but still shame on those dealers that don't thoroughly inspect and tell the user all is well - if that indeed happens - there's a lot of emotion and finger pointing in those testimonials (you get emotional when you sludge on the way to summer vacation).
But in your own words, a 98-2001 Sienna owner should do 5k OCIs or face possible consequences - that alone seems like an indictment against that particular engine. So to say the user aren't truthful, well they may not be truthful but they may not be very far off the truth in their OCI guesses. Plus, the owners manual says 5k severe, 7.5k otherwise. Anyway, in the end Toyota made it right for everyone affected. Props to them.
Eric, you are right in many ways about this engine. Toyota goofed when they started recommending 7500 mile OCI's in 1997. 10 years later with much better oils they are at 5000 mile OCI on all vehicles no matter what. That sludge issue still stings! Most owners did not do 7500 mile OCI's, they did 9-10K OCI's because "It's a Toyota", and "I was too busy" etc etc. There were some exceptions, but few and far between.
Veedubb, so true. Most people that had a sludge issue were clueless, OR acted dumb. Both were to their advantage.
I need to put a new thread together with more facts about sludge. Maybe a sticky would happen that could be helpful. Only problem is I am so baised sometimes because of so much contact with this issue. We will see.
P.S. to this thread...
After considering all the responses, I thought that the best couse of action was to take the car to Derek @ his Toyota dealership, since the car was still under warranty for sludging.
Sure enough, the engine had sludged. Derek said that he'd seen much worse, but that I definitely needed repairs for unusual cylinder wear. Derek's shop rebuilt the engine, and it runs great. I would definitely consult Derek again about any Toyota problems-he's an expert, and very straight to deal with.
Derek did say that it appeared that the engine had been more heavily sludged at one time, so the synthetics and good OCIs of the past few years probably had some cleaning effect-just not enough.
If this car hadn't been under warranty, it would have been interesting to try Auto RX. The thing about Auto RX, though, is that it may clean very well, but won't repair engine damage.
Derek, please feel free to chime in, or post photos, etc.
After considering all the responses, I thought that the best couse of action was to take the car to Derek @ his Toyota dealership, since the car was still under warranty for sludging.
Sure enough, the engine had sludged. Derek said that he'd seen much worse, but that I definitely needed repairs for unusual cylinder wear. Derek's shop rebuilt the engine, and it runs great. I would definitely consult Derek again about any Toyota problems-he's an expert, and very straight to deal with.
Derek did say that it appeared that the engine had been more heavily sludged at one time, so the synthetics and good OCIs of the past few years probably had some cleaning effect-just not enough.
If this car hadn't been under warranty, it would have been interesting to try Auto RX. The thing about Auto RX, though, is that it may clean very well, but won't repair engine damage.
Derek, please feel free to chime in, or post photos, etc.
Thank you John for your kind words! I was happy to help out. And sure enough, it had sludge! But not a huge amount. I am sure that it had a little more at one time.
We were able to cover the entire repair under the SPA (Special Policy Adjustment) through Toyota. We ended replacing the engine short block assembly due to some things my technician Dave saw (a master tech actually...he rocks, and is much smarter than I for sure!.
The initial inspection revealed sludge on the cam caps and bolts, and the underside of the front valve cover. This amount was enough to warrant further disassebmly. We removed the engine and completely disassembled it completely. Here is some what we found:
*Sludge residue in the oil pan, upper cylinder head, valve covers (clogging PVC system adding to the oil consumption at high speeds), and oil pump.
*Heavy varnish in upper cylinder head along with slightly dry valve seals.
*Odd hot/dark spots in the cylinder walls that did not hone out by hand. We were not able to come to an exact conclusion for this. I asked John if the engine had ever overheated before, and he was not aware of this occuring. The piston rings were NOT stuck, which surprised me. All rings were moving freely at the time of disassembly. My tech had suggested that the rings may have lost some tension if indeed the engine had overheated. But, and this bugs us, we will never really know. Time and workload along with the fact that Toyota bought a complete short block (block/rods/crank etc preassembled) stopped us from looking into this further at this time. All bearing surfaces for the rods and crank looked fine, but were replaced anyway with the shortblock as it is Toyota's preference in my district.
In a nutshell the engine is good-to-go now. We performed a valve job and completely cleaned the heads as part of the repair. I suggested to John to do OCI's at 5000's from this point on and there should be no other issues. I will share some pictures with you, but I am not so good with this site, so good luck!
http://s182.photobucket.com/albums/x234/derek244/
We were able to cover the entire repair under the SPA (Special Policy Adjustment) through Toyota. We ended replacing the engine short block assembly due to some things my technician Dave saw (a master tech actually...he rocks, and is much smarter than I for sure!.
The initial inspection revealed sludge on the cam caps and bolts, and the underside of the front valve cover. This amount was enough to warrant further disassebmly. We removed the engine and completely disassembled it completely. Here is some what we found:
*Sludge residue in the oil pan, upper cylinder head, valve covers (clogging PVC system adding to the oil consumption at high speeds), and oil pump.
*Heavy varnish in upper cylinder head along with slightly dry valve seals.
*Odd hot/dark spots in the cylinder walls that did not hone out by hand. We were not able to come to an exact conclusion for this. I asked John if the engine had ever overheated before, and he was not aware of this occuring. The piston rings were NOT stuck, which surprised me. All rings were moving freely at the time of disassembly. My tech had suggested that the rings may have lost some tension if indeed the engine had overheated. But, and this bugs us, we will never really know. Time and workload along with the fact that Toyota bought a complete short block (block/rods/crank etc preassembled) stopped us from looking into this further at this time. All bearing surfaces for the rods and crank looked fine, but were replaced anyway with the shortblock as it is Toyota's preference in my district.
In a nutshell the engine is good-to-go now. We performed a valve job and completely cleaned the heads as part of the repair. I suggested to John to do OCI's at 5000's from this point on and there should be no other issues. I will share some pictures with you, but I am not so good with this site, so good luck!
http://s182.photobucket.com/albums/x234/derek244/
What kind of oil was in that engine Derek?
heat spots on the cylinder wall would suggest deficient cooling, which one could suspect is due to one of those hushush design flaws. It would also explain how oil sludges up in these engines to begin with.
Doesn't speak much to Mobil 1 then.
Well, not exactly. We do not see this very often, even on heavily sludged engines. I do agree that the upper cylinder heads most likely cook oil into sludge at miles past 5,000 on the oil. Toyota has determined that paying for Johns engine (over $5,000) was better than releasing the super top-secret document revealing the design flaw that has been hidden from the general public.
I have a '97 1MZ in my Avalon in which the oil is religiously changed every 3k miles with regular bottle conventional oil. 2 years ago I at about 90k miles, I pulled the valve covers to replace the valve cover gaskets as they were leaking. The valve covers were sludged, and cleaned it with carb cleaner, the heads had a very thin film of sludge, bit nothing too bad from what I saw. But for 3k mile oil changes I was surprised to see any sludge. Now 2 years later and 121k miles, it seems to be running fine and not burning any oil between changes. I know 2 people one with a 99 Avalon and one with a 98 Sienna, both had their engines sludge on them and needed replacement. Both of their cars were bought used so they are unsure of the maintenance history, however, my car was bought new in 97, with all maintenance records.
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I really do not know about you brother.
Doesn't speak much to Mobil 1 then.
So Mobil 1 was after the incident? I can't be anyone's brother, I'm not made that way.
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