or sooner .The oil gets pretty yuckey with breakin metals.
Should I change ATF at 30k for 06 Accord V6?
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guess I better change my rebuild's fluid next weekend...about 4k on the clock.
The 6th generation had a recommendation of 60k (3 years) initially & then every 30k miles (2 years) for severe service. The normal service schedule was every 120k miles (6 years) & then every 90k miles (5 years). So, every 15k miles is only cutting the severe service in half or fourth if factory fill
Now, why would they decrease the interval AFTER the factory fill is removed?
Because they want you to run a certain amount with the factory fill because ...
- the factory fill is fortified with antiwear additives not in standard fluids requiring time/miles to be properly deposited
- the assembly greases used have the same effect as a fortified factory fill
- oils with different (improved) properties may not allow the moving parts to properly "wear to match" preventing the car from ever breaking in correctly
Toyota is similar in that they recommend that you don't change the engine oil until the full milage of the first interval has elapsed.
or
- they want you to have a totally worry free first 60k so that later when you start to do the required maintnence you'll say "Bag this" and go buy a new one.
- the factory fill is fortified with antiwear additives not in standard fluids requiring time/miles to be properly deposited
- the assembly greases used have the same effect as a fortified factory fill
- oils with different (improved) properties may not allow the moving parts to properly "wear to match" preventing the car from ever breaking in correctly
Toyota is similar in that they recommend that you don't change the engine oil until the full milage of the first interval has elapsed.
or
- they want you to have a totally worry free first 60k so that later when you start to do the required maintnence you'll say "Bag this" and go buy a new one.
OR, because with drain/fill techniques they recommend, they know you don't get all the old fluid out in three rounds?
MonumentOiler,
I'm talking about the ATF not the engine oil so I'm not sure where you're getting the factory fill fortified oils.
I'm talking about the ATF not the engine oil so I'm not sure where you're getting the factory fill fortified oils.
I like to go long range w/my wife's Montero 2wd. At 30K I did my own tranny flush.
Simply pull the out going tranny line from the radiator, start the vehicle and let it pump. Refill and do it again. Maybe one more time.
I used the recommended Amsoil synthetic. Maybe 10 or 11 qts. That tranny got real smoothe. Figure I'm good 'till 100K.
Simply pull the out going tranny line from the radiator, start the vehicle and let it pump. Refill and do it again. Maybe one more time.
I used the recommended Amsoil synthetic. Maybe 10 or 11 qts. That tranny got real smoothe. Figure I'm good 'till 100K.
benjamming - The ideas I listed are potential reasons why I think they may have specified a long early interval then shorter at higher milages. (Not actual documented/known reasons)
Others
- I think it's possible that Honda uses a factory fill ATF that they think has superior qualities.
- they also may figure that with 100% new fluid they can go long but as Titan mentioned later it will always be somewhat contaminated and need refreshing
- they could be trying to look good in "Total cost of ownership" comparisons that include PM recommended by the OEM and usually don't go beyond the 5 year/75,000 mile range
- reducing required maintnence during the three year leases
This board really needs an edit function. The quality and clarity of the posts would improve.
Others
- I think it's possible that Honda uses a factory fill ATF that they think has superior qualities.
- they also may figure that with 100% new fluid they can go long but as Titan mentioned later it will always be somewhat contaminated and need refreshing
- they could be trying to look good in "Total cost of ownership" comparisons that include PM recommended by the OEM and usually don't go beyond the 5 year/75,000 mile range
- reducing required maintnence during the three year leases
This board really needs an edit function. The quality and clarity of the posts would improve.
1) Hit the reply button on the post you want to edit
2) Go to the link at the top of the page and change "newreply.php" to "editpost.php"
Bill
Thanks Monument Oiler, I am th original poster..
Should I then leave the Factory Fill ATF in for 60k per the MMS then if it has special additives? I drive normal about 70-80% of the time and spirited 10%-15% and racing type stuff where I see redline maybe 5% or a bit less. I have never went to the track or nothing like that where it is constanly seeing redline but about a handfull times, I have raced on the street..well actually here are the cars I have raced..(Nissan Titan, Camaro, S2000, Lexus Sc, Mustang V6) My car has 27,200 miles maybe a few less.
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Yeah, the point of always having some level of contaminated fluid in there seems to be the most logical.
Of course, IMHO the point of very extended ATF OCIs is aimed at reducing total cost of ownership & for lease cars. To most folks, the tranny is a black box.
I don't think I've ever seen anyone postulate that the factory fill ATF is special. My factory fill UOA didn't appear to show anything different from other UOA/VOAs. I've not seen anything mentioned in the Service News either like we have with the FF oil. Interesting.
Hey 6VV6 just an FYI -- for you ,
Just so you know , there is nothing special , strange or weird about your specific Honda AT that prevents a proper low pressure forward flush from a clean machine , operating with the correct pressures/pressure "method" , and using an appropriate fluid from being done for good effect .
I don't do this on a Honda - because partial drain fills every 5-15k work at least as well , in most cases much better, and can save money , sometimes the really big money .
Since things are now so confused and inaccurate on this thread lets look at what Honda is saying to do for severe service on your Accord and the real information behind it .
As noted previously , at 60k on the severe schedule , they want you to do a series of partial drains in rapid succession with a little driving in between .
Using the AMSOIL look up guide for volume capacities , the correct information on your vehicle in this regard is that every 60k they want you to drain and fill 3.1 quarts four times in a row using a total of 3.1x4 or 12.4 quarts of fluid .
Since your total AT capacity is 7.6 quarts , if you do this , you will use 12.4 quarts of atf to change 88.59% of your 7.6 quart capacity , or put another way , Honda wants you to buy 12.4 quarts of their fluid to change out 6.73 quarts in your 7.6 quart capacity system .
Hurray for all the Honda Parts Department .
Personally , I don't like to throw 5.67 quarts of perfectly good ATF into a recycling tank - esp since the AT in this case still has almost 1/8 of its capacity made up of 60k old and very nasty fluid in it , but , hey , maybe you are OK with that - its up to the individual .
Worth noting ,It doesn't matter if you do their method at 30k or 60k or whatever - you still end up wasting 5.67quarts of fluid per Honda "change" ie 45.73% is disposed of early - or at best , used as a very expensive and very weak flush .
This means in terms of dollars , you throw away 5.67 x (4-9.00)$ or somewhere between 22.68-51.08$ plus tax - which some use to put towards a correctly done forward flush .
If you are using the higher cost fluids and have a shop that will work with you the total cost comes out the same - w/o you doing the work .
There is a better , simpler , and most times cheaper/less time consuming way to maintain your fluid than either of the above - its basically what some Honda AT owners have been doing since Honda has offered an automatic .
Its also what Honda used to recommend for severe service on many of their ATs .
Lets back up a minute .
Part of why this factory method is so inefficient is (do the math) you are not changing out 50% of your fluid per partial drain , the correct number for your installation is 41-42% - which makes a large difference after 4 partial drain and fills .
Most Honda ATs regardless of year or model are in this range with the rest somewhere between 40-45% .
You posted that on other forums Honda owners are doing too much changing by using a 15k interval - this is incorrect x2 - the vast majority of Honda owners when they use 15k in their AT maintenance schedule are doing a single partial drain and fill not four in a row so they use exactly the same amount of fluid every 60k - the difference is they don't waste 45/46 % of their fluid purchases and they make a no cost , high value improvement in their AT fluid quality over the life of the vehicle by doing so .
They are metaphorically , buying 100$ bills for 20 bucks and unlike some , know the value of that .
( Obviously , both methods have the same fluid quality between 0-15k) .
Qualitatively , by doing a simple , single partial drain at 15k vs the Honda prescribed 4x3.1Q "change" they have much better fluid quality between 15k thru 60k and slightly less fluid quality during the 60-75k interval .
At 75k they pull ahead again , as the comparative cycle repeats itself .
If you have decided that a 30k "change" is what you want you can get the same improvements and advantages doing a single drop and fill every 7.5k .
You might be able to substitute a single drop and fill at 10-15k and save some money .
When Honda says "change" the fluid on your transmission they mean 3.1Qx4 , not 3.1Qx1 .
One of the other benefits to the frequent partial drain method is that your Honda provided filter , which is a PIA to change , will have a longer service life .
My apologies in advance to all those who sell ATF for a living and need to do increase volume this way .
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Sweet. I got a lot to think about but thanks for clearing that up. I see what is happening. It's 4 drains at 15k is what people are doing. I think I am going to try to do 4 drain and fills at 30k. That way, if there is a special break-in formula for the ATF, I would have that in there for 30k which would be pretty darn good. On a side note, I think one of the reason I may be getting more power from this car is due to the tranny itself, namely the changes they made to the gearing and ratios and what not when they added +4 hp in 2006. So I do not want to jeopordize that and so 4 drain and fills at 30k seems plausible to me right now. But wow that is going to increase the TCO on this car. I like the idea of leaving it there for the whole 60k (or as close as the MMS/OLM allows..it could be *anywhere* from 50-60k). Wow. not so sure now but I do know that this car would benefit from an ATF D&F but at what cost! wow every 30k and 4 of them is costly! But then again, I do oil changes every 5-6k now so that's about the same price. I would definitely do it myself to save on labor. No way I am going to let Honda get my money for something I technically should never have to worry about from a Honda and that is 'high maintenance' tranny maintenance. That new Nissan Altima coupe V6 is sounding real good right about now when it comes out.
Well if you go 105k then you remove the fluid with a spoon..
I can't tell if we have successfully communicated here .
You may want to reread some posts in this thread when you have time .
Super short :
1) "Catch up" by doing 2-4 x 1 drop and fills over the next 0 - 5 - 7.5k .Your pick when and how - all good .
2) Then , every 10-15k do a simple , single 1 x 1 3.1Q drop and fill .
3) Do the filter somewhere between 45-100k - as needed . .
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No - its one drain and fill every 15 , or another way to say for cost comparisons - which are equal - is once every 15k is better than four times all at once at 60k even tho its the same amount of fluid .
So every 15k over a period of 60k = 1x4 VS 4x1 ie four in a row every 60k .
Yet another way to say the same thing IS 4 x 15k vs 4 "AT" 60k is more useful - still the same amount of fluid .
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6VV6 ,
One other thing to consider , - or what I'm thinking about in regards to a familly members 2006 Crv on AT maintenance .
( Which , no surprise , has the same schedule as yours ) .
Quick review of that Honda severe schedule using your Accord capacities ;
At 60k as per previous - partial drain and fill x 4 , ie 3.1Q X 4 .
Total of 12.4Q in 0-60k .
Then , they want the same thing done every 30k thereafter. ie @ 90k ,120k, 150k, etc .
So , doing a little math to add up the amount of fluid used over 0-150k it comes to 12.4Q @ 60K, 90K, 120K, AND 150K .
Doing a little more math , that means 12.4Q times 4 which equals 49.6 total Quarts used during 0-150k .
Your more efficient use of exactly the same amount of fluid but using a single drop and fill more
frequently instead of the factory method/schedule would be ;
49.6/3.1Q which equals 16 x 1 (vs 4 X 4).
To get the mileage interval divide 150k/16 which equals 9,375 miles .
In other words ,
1) Doing the factory severe schedule costs the same amount as doing a simple , single drop and fill every 9,375 miles over the mileage period of 0-150k .
So , intuitively ,(very OK to use here) would you rather have 41.89% new fluid every 9,375 miles or 88.59% new at 60k, 90k, 120k, and 150k ?
Yes , there is no comparision as to which is better for the fluid and your trans - all for the same amount of fluid and money .
One of the other things I like about this is that it can be made more convenient by matching all or part of your AT drop and drain to your Oil change schedule .
As an example , the CRV over here has a Honda extended warranty for 10Y /120k so as a result the oil change schedule will be strictly in line with the recommended factory interval regardless of oil used etc .
(This is just a choice - one among many)
That schedule is I believe , the same as yours , in any case its (severe) 5k on the oil and 10k on the filter .
So without going into all of the details of the oil change program "we" will be following for convenience on the AT , a 10k interval with one extra already done for break in and just for the heck of it two or three extras thrown in on 5k intervals down the road - if I'm involved there will be more .
One other thing to consider , - or what I'm thinking about in regards to a familly members 2006 Crv on AT maintenance .
( Which , no surprise , has the same schedule as yours ) .
Quick review of that Honda severe schedule using your Accord capacities ;
At 60k as per previous - partial drain and fill x 4 , ie 3.1Q X 4 .
Total of 12.4Q in 0-60k .
Then , they want the same thing done every 30k thereafter. ie @ 90k ,120k, 150k, etc .
So , doing a little math to add up the amount of fluid used over 0-150k it comes to 12.4Q @ 60K, 90K, 120K, AND 150K .
Doing a little more math , that means 12.4Q times 4 which equals 49.6 total Quarts used during 0-150k .
Your more efficient use of exactly the same amount of fluid but using a single drop and fill more
frequently instead of the factory method/schedule would be ;
49.6/3.1Q which equals 16 x 1 (vs 4 X 4).
To get the mileage interval divide 150k/16 which equals 9,375 miles .
In other words ,
1) Doing the factory severe schedule costs the same amount as doing a simple , single drop and fill every 9,375 miles over the mileage period of 0-150k .
So , intuitively ,(very OK to use here) would you rather have 41.89% new fluid every 9,375 miles or 88.59% new at 60k, 90k, 120k, and 150k ?
Yes , there is no comparision as to which is better for the fluid and your trans - all for the same amount of fluid and money .
One of the other things I like about this is that it can be made more convenient by matching all or part of your AT drop and drain to your Oil change schedule .
As an example , the CRV over here has a Honda extended warranty for 10Y /120k so as a result the oil change schedule will be strictly in line with the recommended factory interval regardless of oil used etc .
(This is just a choice - one among many)
That schedule is I believe , the same as yours , in any case its (severe) 5k on the oil and 10k on the filter .
So without going into all of the details of the oil change program "we" will be following for convenience on the AT , a 10k interval with one extra already done for break in and just for the heck of it two or three extras thrown in on 5k intervals down the road - if I'm involved there will be more .
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