Should C.A.F.E standards be raised even higher?

[Win]

Originally Posted By: kestas
....
I notice a lot of people posting in this thread drive fuel-efficient vehicles. Let's hear what the people who own trucks and SUVs (who make up a large portion of the driving public) have to say about CAFE.


CAFE is de facto, arbitrary, rationing of a commodity, fuel. In a free market economy, rationing is done much more efficiently by cost.

National emergencies may justify rationing. We are nowhere near that type of national emergency.

I'm dubious of the proposition that Suburban driving soccer moms really drive up the cost of fuel much, but so what if they do? Fat people drive up medical costs. Motorcycle riders crash and run up big medical expenses. Able bodied people choose not to work. People live too far from where they work and guzzle gas no matter what they are driving. The list of things that people do that financially impact everybody else is almost limitless.

It's called freedom. I hope we keep it.

 

[JOD]

Originally Posted By: Win


CAFE is de facto, arbitrary, rationing of a commodity, fuel. In a free market economy, rationing is done much more efficiently by cost......
It's called freedom. I hope we keep it.


Please, stop with the "freedom" hyperbole.

It's not called "freedom", it's called "delusion", as in "one must be delusional to believe the oil is traded in a free market economy".

It's not, and it never has been. The sooner you acknowledge this fact, the sooner you'll be able to rationally discuss the topic.

 

[sciphi]

Originally Posted By: unDummy
Take CAFE and toss it out the window.

Take the federal gas tax and raise it to $1 for diesel & gasoline.

Eliminate all greenie-fuel subsidies and let the market do its thing.



A big +1!!! Or raise the gas/diesel tax higher, and use that funding to repair our roads.

Then it's the feds guiding the market instead of being the market for you market-oriented types. A de-facto "guzzler" tax for the greenies. And, we all benefit from better roads by fewer delays and better health from not being in our cars as long. Oh wait, it makes far too much sense, so it'll never happen.

 

[The_Jeff]

Originally Posted By: Win

I'm dubious of the proposition that Suburban driving soccer moms really drive up the cost of fuel much, but so what if they do? Fat people drive up medical costs. Motorcycle riders crash and run up big medical expenses. Able bodied people choose not to work. People live too far from where they work and guzzle gas no matter what they are driving. The list of things that people do that financially impact everybody else is almost limitless.

It's called freedom. I hope we keep it.


As we import ~70% of our oil there are large piles of dollars floating around overseas and a house of cards in the Middle East we're supporting with our Department of Defense.

We're hampered in our foreign policy negotiations as we don't want to offend those with cheap oil or piles of dollars. Compromising our relations with others, especially those who don't really like us, is a loss of freedom on a giant scale.

 

[CivicFan]

Originally Posted By: eljefino
Originally Posted By: Win

I'm dubious of the proposition that Suburban driving soccer moms really drive up the cost of fuel much, but so what if they do? Fat people drive up medical costs. Motorcycle riders crash and run up big medical expenses. Able bodied people choose not to work. People live too far from where they work and guzzle gas no matter what they are driving. The list of things that people do that financially impact everybody else is almost limitless.

It's called freedom. I hope we keep it.


As we import ~70% of our oil there are large piles of dollars floating around overseas and a house of cards in the Middle East we're supporting with our Department of Defense.

We're hampered in our foreign policy negotiations as we don't want to offend those with cheap oil or piles of dollars. Compromising our relations with others, especially those who don't really like us, is a loss of freedom on a giant scale.


It's not the only cost. We spend 4.3% of our GDP on military and quite a lot of that effort is made to make sure we have unrestricted access to oil. This cost is not reflected in the price of the gasoline.

The free market guys conveniently forget about this major cost.

 

[kender]

Originally Posted By: oldmaninsc
Originally Posted By: kender

IMO "freedom of choice" should not include 5,000 pound goliaths that use 3 times the gas to drive someones butt to walmart. Perhaps gas should cost 6 or 7 dollars a gallon. Then a bunch of ego driven clowns will stop "biggie sizing" everything!!

Boy talk about stereotyping and narrow minded. For the record if I can afford to buy one of those "5,000 pound goliaths" then I probably don't care if it takes 100 - 150 bucks to fill it. It's mostly the low income people that are complaining about the cost of gasoline anyhow! really big

Edit: I haven't been to P.A. for a while - but in my neck of the woods there aren't that many of the "big boys" at Walmart but there are a lot of junkers and "ricers" that probably should have been off the road 2 - 3 years ago!

It's not about what it costs to fill your TANK (pun intended). It's about a limited supply of a resource, that some people feel are entitled to use without any consideration at all. Because, hey, "I can afford it". ME,ME,ME.
You said, "It's mostly the low income people that are complaining about the cost of gasoline anyhow!

"
That pretty much explains it all!!

BTW,I'm not "low income people".

 

[ZZman]

The manufacturers and their ad agencies tell us we need bigger and stronger and faster.

Our greed and wanting to have "stuff" and as much or more than our neighbor feeds into it.

Our "he who has the most toys wins" mentality feeds the entitlement thought process.

We buy into all that.

 

[kender]

Originally Posted By: ZZman
The manufacturers and their ad agencies tell us we need bigger and stronger and faster.

Our greed and wanting to have "stuff" and as much or more than our neighbor feeds into it.

Our "he who has the most toys wins" mentality feeds the entitlement thought process.

We buy into all that.


+1

 

[Smokescreen]

CAFE is a band-aid/smokescreen for "Look at us, we are trying to use fuel better, & hey we even have a named initiative for it."

Look, we have vehicles that have had minimal gains in fuel economy over the past 20-30 years. Sure they have been able to regain much of the power that had been lost by unleaded and emission controls...but seriously, the automobile has been around for over 130+ years...and this is where we are at? This is all mankind has to offer in this sphere? I doubt it. Look at EV1 and a host of other "radical" advancement in aero dynamics and other ideas that were squashed by some unknown entity, yet the general population continues on oblivious. I know of guys that can get 114mpg @ 70 mph off of a 92 civic, just by adding some backyardigan aero mods or guys that have made their own EV vehicles for pennies on the dollar of any hybrid or EV car that is out there today.


If the 'powers that be' were really serious about the earth, reducing oil consumption etc they would let science have free reign and we would have something different best of both worlds fuel economy and power and the difference would be huge compared to what we have today. You can't possibly believe that if they offered a 300hp SUV that could get 40mpg, or a 90mpg mid sized commuter tomorrow that it wouldn't sell.

I don't think we have the entire picture or are at least willing to accept that we don't. We only really can know what we are told when it comes to oil. Oil companies and those that own them drive the industry, they are much more powerful than they let on. The problem is at the source...it always has been....

 

[Kestas]

Originally Posted By: ZZman
The manufacturers and their ad agencies tell us we need bigger and stronger and faster.

Our greed and wanting to have "stuff" and as much or more than our neighbor feeds into it.

Our "he who has the most toys wins" mentality feeds the entitlement thought process.

We buy into all that.

Just ignore them. Stand on your two feet and tell THEM what you want.

 

[KrisZ]

I find it quite amusing that so many here are so willing to give away their money to the government in the form of higher taxes or raised CAFE standards.

Since when, giving money to the feds solved anything?
They will just manage to spend that money somewhere else and ask for more. Taxpayer gets shafted both ways. ALWAYS!!!!

 

[LS2JSTS]

Originally Posted By: kender
Originally Posted By: ZZman
The manufacturers and their ad agencies tell us we need bigger and stronger and faster.

Our greed and wanting to have "stuff" and as much or more than our neighbor feeds into it.

Our "he who has the most toys wins" mentality feeds the entitlement thought process.

We buy into all that.


+1


LOL...speak for yourselves.

Maybe you two include yourselves in that group of simple minded idiots, but for myself, I buy based on projected need.

 

[kender]

Originally Posted By: LS2JSTS
Originally Posted By: kender
Originally Posted By: ZZman
The manufacturers and their ad agencies tell us we need bigger and stronger and faster.

Our greed and wanting to have "stuff" and as much or more than our neighbor feeds into it.

Our "he who has the most toys wins" mentality feeds the entitlement thought process.

We buy into all that.


+1


LOL...speak for yourselves.

Maybe you two include yourselves in that group of simple minded idiots, but for myself, I buy based on projected need.


Yeah, whatever.I drive a civic. No cell phone,no ipad,no kindle. In other words, I don't need all the newest high tech junk most Americans just can't live without. That includes stupid SUV's and 4 door pickup's.

 

[LS2JSTS]

Gee, I don't understand, how is that possible?

How were you able to resist the all powerful marketing and advertising that forces all the rest of us simpletons to buy SUV's, pick up's and all the latest electronic goodies?

As for CAFE, why stop at 30 mpg, or 35 mpg? Why not make it 80 mpg? Obviously this is a legislative issue and not a technology based problem...lol.

 

[oldmaninsc]

Originally Posted By: kender
Originally Posted By: oldmaninsc
Originally Posted By: kender

IMO "freedom of choice" should not include 5,000 pound goliaths that use 3 times the gas to drive someones butt to walmart. Perhaps gas should cost 6 or 7 dollars a gallon. Then a bunch of ego driven clowns will stop "biggie sizing" everything!!

Boy talk about stereotyping and narrow minded. For the record if I can afford to buy one of those "5,000 pound goliaths" then I probably don't care if it takes 100 - 150 bucks to fill it. It's mostly the low income people that are complaining about the cost of gasoline anyhow! really big

Edit: I haven't been to P.A. for a while - but in my neck of the woods there aren't that many of the "big boys" at Walmart but there are a lot of junkers and "ricers" that probably should have been off the road 2 - 3 years ago!

It's not about what it costs to fill your TANK (pun intended). It's about a limited supply of a resource, that some people feel are entitled to use without any consideration at all. Because, hey, "I can afford it". ME,ME,ME.
You said, "It's mostly the low income people that are complaining about the cost of gasoline anyhow!

"
That pretty much explains it all!!

BTW,I'm not "low income people".


You still didn't address my other point. Who uses more "resources"? Me driving a Grand Marquis 7K miles a year, or someone driving a Civic 30K a year?
The way I see it - your thinking is - because you drive a small car you are "entitled" to use more "resources" over the course of a year or 5 years just because you use them a little at a time?
Makes perfect sense to me! (NOT)

 

[oldmaninsc]

Originally Posted By: LS2JSTS
Gee, I don't understand, how is that possible?

How were you able to resist the all powerful marketing and advertising that forces all the rest of us simpletons to buy SUV's, pick up's and all the latest electronic goodies?

As for CAFE, why stop at 30 mpg, or 35 mpg? Why not make it 80 mpg? Obviously this is a legislative issue and not a technology based problem...lol.




For once I agree with you! LOL!

Originally Posted By: KrisZ
I find it quite amusing that so many here are so willing to give away their money to the government in the form of higher taxes or raised CAFE standards.

Since when, giving money to the feds solved anything?
They will just manage to spend that money somewhere else and ask for more. Taxpayer gets shafted both ways. ALWAYS!!!!


Exactly!

 

[ZZman]

No one said anything about being as simpleton or an idiot.

We are a throw away society.....we are told we need the newest and nicest things. It is drilled into our heads.

It is a plague on society. Get now.....worry about paying later.

We deserve the best.....

 

[LS2JSTS]

Originally Posted By: oldmaninsc

Plus once you start telling people what they can drive, what next? Tell them how big their house can be? Do two people really need 2-3k square feet or more? Wouldn't something the size of an average motel room be sufficient? It takes a lot of "natural resources" to heat/cool the bigger house.
How about telling people how many kids they can have? So much for freedom!


LOL...and likewise, I agree with you here 1000%

 

[LS2JSTS]

The "Central Planners" are out in full force in this thread.


How about this...I don't care what you drive or buy, how about giving me the same courtesy?

You all can live off the grid in a mud shack and your kids can walk to school in burlap sacks for all I care. Just dont expect the rest of us to follow you back to the 19th century.

 

[kender]

Originally Posted By: oldmaninsc
You still didn't address my other point. Who uses more "resources"? Me driving a Grand Marquis 7K miles a year, or someone driving a Civic 30K a year?
The way I see it - your thinking is - because you drive a small car you are "entitled" to use more "resources" over the course of a year or 5 years just because you use them a little at a time?
Makes perfect sense to me! (NOT)

I could say the same thing. I drive about 9,000 miles a year. My wife drives 5,000 miles per year. I'm sure there's people here in my town that drive 100 miles per day commuting in a huge vehicle. Who uses more resources? I'm not saying anyone should take your vehicle. But it makes no sense not to increase C.A.F.E standards on MPG for future vehicles. When your Grand Marquis is in the junkyard, you can buy something more.....sensible.