Should C.A.F.E standards be raised even higher?

[Smokescreen]

eljefino : "We don't have an oil problem, we have a world population problem."

Yeah....and here it is.....

Some of the population actually believes they deserve to be on this planet more than another part of the population does. This point of view is so pious, so noble, so forward thinking. The only problem is those who speak it NEVER step forward to volunteer to put their money where their mouth is.

 

[The_Jeff]

^ Ah but you miss the relevance to the subject of this thread.

If oil fields are flat out, plus or minus a couple percent, with 7 billion people driving around at an average 30 MPG or whatever... what MPG are we going to need when there are 9 billion? Should we prepare ahead of time or let people make wrong choices then bail them out (again) with cash for clunkers (2)? Should we let that gas guzzler be made only to dump some liquid glass in it later? Or should we nip it in the bud?

 

[whip]

I'm shocked and appalled at the number of people that think the government is the solution to this problem. When was the last time the government got anything right?

 

[OVERKILL]

Originally Posted By: OVERK1LL

I find the people that talk about gas mileage the most are the ones that continually try to justify their "holier than thou" position on owning a small car. And want to rub it into everybody's face how good their car is on gas.


Just a few choice quotes from this thread:

"What are you paying for regular gas?"

to show you what I'm talking about:

Quote:
Paid 3.26 yesterday to fill one car, and 3.32 today to fill another.
The station at which I bought the 3.26 fuel yesterday was up to 3.44 today.
Ouch!
Glad I don't have a truck as my daily driver.


Quote:
I filled up my Honda Accord today - 55L and $72.50 later ($1.30L).

The only thing I think I've ever had to spend that much money on gas in one fill is a motorhome!


Quote:
$3.83 . 2010 YARIS 3 door took 7.724 gallons . 282.1 mis.. Thus it got 36.52 m.p.g.. The Eco-Meter read 36.5. Car has 4 new Blizzak WS 70 tires at 36 p.s.i..


Quote:
Yeah i love the gas mileage in my Yaris! I usually get between 35-37 in mostly city driving. Nearby shell gas station is at $3.67 right now.




But I don't recall one person in that thread complaining about the gas mileage of their truck or SUV......

BTW, this is not meant to be an attack or dig at those who made the above posts. Simply an observation that those who talk about gas prices the most are those that drive the smallest/"most efficient" vehicles.

 

[kender]

Originally Posted By: whip
I'm shocked and appalled at the number of people that think the government is the solution to this problem. When was the last time the government got anything right?

I'm not a believer in big government. However, I think some on here want no rules or regs at all. Lets just let factories ( the ones that are still around ) start dumping untreated waste into the rivers again. Who needs clean water anyway. Clean air? Let the free market decide. You don't have to be a "greenie", or a "pinko", or a "left wing nut" to believe that we should try to cut back on our oil usage where possible. The oil wells won't last forever. And who knows when the supply won't be able to keep up with the demand. Although personally, I think the nukes will be flying before we get far down the road.

 

[Smokescreen]

Originally Posted By: eljefino
^ Ah but you miss the relevance to the subject of this thread.

If oil fields are flat out, plus or minus a couple percent, with 7 billion people driving around at an average 30 MPG or whatever... what MPG are we going to need when there are 9 billion? Should we prepare ahead of time or let people make wrong choices then bail them out (again) with cash for clunkers (2)? Should we let that gas guzzler be made only to dump some liquid glass in it later? Or should we nip it in the bud?

A huge percentage of the gas guzzlers aren't found anywhere else but good old North America. You speak of these huge emerging numbers of people driving cars...but nearly are all of them driving small economical ones. The huge SUVs just aren't practical there.

BTW....Cash for clunkers was a dismal failure. Why anybody fell for that is beyond my understanding.

Kender has it right....the world will be scraping to find essential life giving items like food, water and shelter before we run out of oil...All the panic about oil will be gone....BTW...I can't recall ever reading that the oil companies are panicking about the very finite oil supply they have....not panicking at all....

 

[OVERKILL]

Originally Posted By: kender
Originally Posted By: whip
I'm shocked and appalled at the number of people that think the government is the solution to this problem. When was the last time the government got anything right?

I'm not a believer in big government. However, I think some on here want no rules or regs at all. Lets just let factories ( the ones that are still around ) start dumping untreated waste into the rivers again. Who needs clean water anyway. Clean air? Let the free market decide. You don't have to be a "greenie", or a "pinko", or a "left wing nut" to believe that we should try to cut back on our oil usage where possible. The oil wells won't last forever. And who knows when the supply won't be able to keep up with the demand. Although personally, I think the nukes will be flying before we get far down the road.

In that vein:

What uses more oil: Driving an older, less fuel efficient vehicle, or buying a new "fuel sipper" every two years to justify your "green initiative" ? (not talking about you personally here, just in general).

Think of the amount of plastic in a car. In the 10 years my Expedition has been around, a "greenie" doing a two year vehicle swap has gone through FIVE cars! That is a whole lot of plastic, steel, iron and Aluminum! That is a whole lot of pollution to process those materials and turn them into a car so that somebody can "feel better" about their "environmental impact" by driving an "efficient" vehicle. All the while looking down their nose at the person driving the 10 year old van or SUV.

 

[The_Jeff]

Originally Posted By: OVERK1LL


Think of the amount of plastic in a car. In the 10 years my Expedition has been around, a "greenie" doing a two year vehicle swap has gone through FIVE cars! That is a whole lot of plastic, steel, iron and Aluminum! That is a whole lot of pollution to process those materials and turn them into a car so that somebody can "feel better" about their "environmental impact" by driving an "efficient" vehicle. All the while looking down their nose at the person driving the 10 year old van or SUV.


You're assuming that greenie's trade in simply gets crushed.

I would like to study the endurance of gas sippers. Most saturns I run across have at least 150k and I see a lot I don't buy with 225k.

However back in the day of dollar gas I saw a Geo metro in the junkyard with 80k. Everything about that car was disposable, like the horrid nonventilated front brakes. Aveos aren't really up for resale... so I can't comment on their value or durability.

If CAFE subsidizes econoboxes so much, like loss leader $9999 Hyundai accents, are they getting ignored in maintenance so they blow up at 110k when the timing belts snap? My gut, and craigslist eyeballing, says yes, or at least they used to until quite recently. Compare to a $40k Suburban that's kept alive 30 years and 250k... first pulling horse trailers, lastly sagging around town with a load of scrap metal.

Speaking of... "good used cars" of any MPG rating are looking much older and more beat for the same price. From a patriotic view this is less imported new car parts content, and work being given to domestic mechanics to keep them rolling... both good things.

 

[kender]

Originally Posted By: OVERK1LL
In that vein:

What uses more oil: Driving an older, less fuel efficient vehicle, or buying a new "fuel sipper" every two years to justify your "green initiative" ? (not talking about you personally here, just in general).

Think of the amount of plastic in a car. In the 10 years my Expedition has been around, a "greenie" doing a two year vehicle swap has gone through FIVE cars! That is a whole lot of plastic, steel, iron and Aluminum! That is a whole lot of pollution to process those materials and turn them into a car so that somebody can "feel better" about their "environmental impact" by driving an "efficient" vehicle. All the while looking down their nose at the person driving the 10 year old van or SUV.


Sure, buying a new car every 2 years just so you have the "greenest" car available would use lots of resources. I plan on driving my cars until they are no longer road worthy. 2004 civic, and a 1995 mazda protoge. They serve their purpose, and I don't have any car payments.

 

[OVERKILL]

Originally Posted By: kender
Sure, buying a new car every 2 years just so you have the "greenest" car available would use lots of resources. I plan on driving my cars until they are no longer road worthy. 2004 civic, and a 1995 mazda protoge. They serve their purpose, and I don't have any car payments.

I do the same. '82 Capri (toy), '89 Town Car, '01 Focus, '02 Expedition.

 

[Tempest]

Quote:
You don't have to be a "greenie", or a "pinko", or a "left wing nut" to believe that we should try to cut back on our oil usage where possible.

How much less oil should we be using?

 

[JOD]

Originally Posted By: OVERK1LL

Think of the amount of plastic in a car. In the 10 years my Expedition has been around, a "greenie" doing a two year vehicle swap has gone through FIVE cars! That is a whole lot of plastic, steel, iron and Aluminum! That is a whole lot of pollution to process those materials and turn them into a car so that somebody can "feel better" about their "environmental impact" by driving an "efficient" vehicle. All the while looking down their nose at the person driving the 10 year old van or SUV.


Could you give some examples of the fuel efficient vehicles which are falling apart and meeting the scrap heap after 2 years?

I don't know about you, but most of the cars I see around here older than 1990 are very small Toyotas and Hondas, along with RWD Volvos.

Yours seems like quite the stawman argument to me.

 

[OVERKILL]

Originally Posted By: JOD
Originally Posted By: OVERK1LL

Think of the amount of plastic in a car. In the 10 years my Expedition has been around, a "greenie" doing a two year vehicle swap has gone through FIVE cars! That is a whole lot of plastic, steel, iron and Aluminum! That is a whole lot of pollution to process those materials and turn them into a car so that somebody can "feel better" about their "environmental impact" by driving an "efficient" vehicle. All the while looking down their nose at the person driving the 10 year old van or SUV.


Could you give some examples of the fuel efficient vehicles which are falling apart and meeting the scrap heap after 2 years?

I don't know about you, but most of the cars I see around here older than 1990 are very small Toyotas and Hondas, along with RWD Volvos.

Yours seems like quite the stawman argument to me.


I don't recall saying they are falling apart? Can you point out where I said that?

I was referring to people who "change up" to a new car every couple of years. Think of somebody who has chosen to lease. Of course the vehicles aren't scrapped! They become used vehicles. But I'm not talking about used vehicles, or the people who buy them.

It is only a strawman when you infer something that was never meant to be implied by my post.

 

[unDummy]

I see plenty of neighbors/coworkers/relatives cars that are pretty much junk after 2-3 years due to abuse and neglect. And, they'll wear their tie-dyes or peace symbol shirts, annoyingly recycle, picket ever cause at will,.... usually its an act as most are hypocrites. They even rarely change or topoff oil(to thumb nose at oil barons). This is not what I would consider a good used car.

And, market shows that SUV/Truck sales drop with increase in gas prices. So, either the money goes to the welfare state, or some billionaire royal oil family. Money to the gov isn't a solution. But, sure beats all my money given to royalty.

From what I remember, there are 30,000 to 40,000 driven miles of equivalent pollution to manufacture a vehicle. I would guess that there is also an equivalent amount to crush/recycle one too(if not more). I'll maintain mine until it isn't feasible. The thought of ~80k miles of instant pollution just to keep up with the Joneses is pretty ignorant. But, ignorance seems to be driven by the advertisers and marketing department.

 

[antonmnster]

What about my "freedom" to not have to pay for the health care of people who've been made ill by the air pollution caused by all the cat-less V8s running around? What about my "freedom" to not develop asthma and heart disease myself because of someone's decision to "drive what they want"? What about my "freedom" to not want to pay - through my hardearned tax dollars - for tax subsidies to oil companies so you can have your cheap gas? What about my "freedom" to not have my hard-earned tax dollars pay for over-built roads in the middle of nowhere on a mode of transportation that doesn't have a bright future, when examined objectively? What about my "freedom" to not be decapitated by a truck because we've decided to abandon any kind of safety standards?

Some of you guys sound like Thomas Jefferson was standing at some Dodge dealership screaming at people that it's their duty as Americans to drive the largest possible truck. I find it to be a little bit misplaced.

 

[fdcg27]

Originally Posted By: whip
I'm shocked and appalled at the number of people that think the government is the solution to this problem. When was the last time the government got anything right?


Well, since we're talkin' cars here, we could start with the National Traffic and Motor Vehicle Safety Act of 1966, move on to the Clean Air Act of 1970, and consider just how much the government mandates since have done both to reduce the garbage we have to breathe, particularly in our cities, as well as the rate of traffic fatalities nationwide.
It is silly to argue that government can do no good, and it is silly to argue that government cannot do anything right.

 

[oldmaninsc]

Originally Posted By: antonmnster
What about my "freedom" to not have to pay for the health care of people who've been made ill by the air pollution caused by all the cat-less V8s running around?

Where is that happening? Not in my area. Cars are burning cleaner than ever. I had my Grand Marquis smogged about a year ago and it was burning very clean. The CO and HC was 0.00 or 0.01 and the NOX was VERY low (I don't remember the exact number). It was low enough that I was surprised. And I've had to do emissions tests on my vehicles since the 70's!

Quote:
What about my "freedom" to not develop asthma and heart disease myself because of someone's decision to "drive what they want"? What about my "freedom" to not want to pay - through my hardearned tax dollars - for tax subsidies to oil companies so you can have your cheap gas? What about my "freedom" to not have my hard-earned tax dollars pay for over-built roads in the middle of nowhere on a mode of transportation that doesn't have a bright future, when examined objectively? What about my "freedom" to not be decapitated by a truck because we've decided to abandon any kind of safety standards?

The last I checked there are safety standards for ALL vehicles for sale in the U.S. Yes people can and do modify their vehicles - which depending on where you live may be illegal.

Quote:
Some of you guys sound like Thomas Jefferson was standing at some Dodge dealership screaming at people that it's their duty as Americans to drive the largest possible truck. I find it to be a little bit misplaced.

That is an extreme exaggeration! Many people have said they don't care what you drive but they want the same consideration.

 

[subiedriver]

I plan on driving my "fuel efficient" car until it is no longer driveable. I'm expecting to drive it at least 250,000 miles. I'm certainly not a "green freak" either, not by a long shot. I have a 90 mile roundtrip commute to work every day, if I were driving a land yacht, I'd be flat broke at the current fuel prices. I'm glad I drive a 30 mpg car and I have no use for an SUV, none, nada, zilch. You know what they say, SUV = Suburban Useless Vehicle. People can drive what they want, but I don't have any sympathy for them when they moan about $3.50/gallon.

Just food for thought, how much oil would have been saved, had every vehicle delivered 25 mpg over the last 15 years? I'm sure it would be in the trillions of barrels.

What's the appeal of an SUV anyway? They handle like garbage trucks, they are slow, clumsy and don't really tow all that well either. If you want a serious towing vehicle, you need a diesel.

 

[oldmaninsc]

Originally Posted By: subiedriver
I plan on driving my "fuel efficient" car until it is no longer driveable. I'm expecting to drive it at least 250,000 miles. I'm certainly not a "green freak" either, not by a long shot. I have a 90 mile roundtrip commute to work every day, if I were driving a land yacht, I'd be flat broke at the current fuel prices. I'm glad I drive a 30 mpg car and I have no use for an SUV, none, nada, zilch. You know what they say, SUV = Suburban Useless Vehicle. People can drive what they want, but I don't have any sympathy for them when they moan about $3.50/gallon.

Just food for thought, how much oil would have been saved, had every vehicle delivered 25 mpg over the last 15 years? I'm sure it would be in the trillions of barrels.

What's the appeal of an SUV anyway? They handle like garbage trucks, they are slow, clumsy and don't really tow all that well either. If you want a serious towing vehicle, you need a diesel.


To tell you the truth I miss my SUV. It handled very good, it wasn't that slow and it towed anything I cared to tow with it. You can't stereotype one group of vehicles. Because one SUV doesn't handle well doesn't mean they all don't!

I have a family I don't need to take the turns at 90 mph. To me driving is not a sport it is about getting from point a to point b safely and comfortably.

I can't win - on another forum someone asked me "What good is a Camry - you can't tow anything with it"?

My Trailblazer towed a very well packed and probably overloaded 6 X 12 UHAUL trailer (with 4 adults inside the SUV) from San Diego to Seattle through all sorts of bad weather. That's 1200 miles up and down mountains. It handled the job beautifully. No need for a noisy, smelly diesel here!
Vehicles are not ONE SIZE FITS ALL! Your happy with your vehicle - that's great.

All I'm saying is you should let me happy with mine. Personally I don't care who drives a moped or an Expedition.

 

[subiedriver]

Oldmaninsc, agreed! You're point is taken.