Should C.A.F.E standards be raised even higher?

[kender]

Originally Posted By: LS2JSTS
The "Central Planners" are out in full force in this thread.


How about this...I don't care what you drive or buy, how about giving me the same courtesy?

You all can live off the grid in a mud shack and your kids can walk to school in burlap sacks for all I care. Just dont expect the rest of us to follow you back to the 19th century.


19th century? yeah, OK.

 

[Hokiefyd]

Originally Posted By: kender
But it makes no sense not to increase C.A.F.E standards on MPG for future vehicles. When your Grand Marquis is in the junkyard, you can buy something more.....sensible.

It makes no sense to not increase CAFE standards if you favor a higher authority restricting your personal choices, that's correct. Many (myself included) are not in favor of that, and I'm against the notion of CAFE to begin with.

I drive what I'm sure you would classify as a "sensible" vehicle. It's a Camry and I average about 30mpg with it. I also drive a "sensible" commute (10-15 miles). I also live in a "sensible" house (1,700 sqft) on a "sensible" lot (0.24 ac).

But, those are MY choices. I know full well that the choices I make for myself are for myself only, and in no way would I EVER presume to know what's best for somebody else. I'll never be in favor of raising CAFE. If we, as auto buyers, really want 50mpg vehicles, we'll demand those.

 

[Hokiefyd]

As an aside, from the technical standpoint, I'm not sure CAFE is effective anyway. Fuel-efficient vehicles encourage people to drive more. They encourage people to move out into the 'burbs. They encourage longer commutes and more discretionary driving.

It's often said that if this country really wanted to save fuel, we'd go back to when cars averaged 10mpg. You'd see the roads much less traveled, I promise you that.

 

[Smokescreen]

Originally Posted By: Hokiefyd
Originally Posted By: kender
But it makes no sense not to increase C.A.F.E standards on MPG for future vehicles. When your Grand Marquis is in the junkyard, you can buy something more.....sensible.

It makes no sense to not increase CAFE standards if you favor a higher authority restricting your personal choices, that's correct. Many (myself included) are not in favor of that, and I'm against the notion of CAFE to begin with.

I drive what I'm sure you would classify as a "sensible" vehicle. It's a Camry and I average about 30mpg with it. I also drive a "sensible" commute (10-15 miles). I also live in a "sensible" house (1,700 sqft) on a "sensible" lot (0.24 ac).

But, those are MY choices. I know full well that the choices I make for myself are for myself only, and in no way would I EVER presume to know what's best for somebody else. I'll never be in favor of raising CAFE. If we, as auto buyers, really want 50mpg vehicles, we'll demand those.


...you can demand all you want...you won't get it. If you guys think you have that much control over the situation you're delusional. You buy what you are told to buy in commercials and other campaigns....look at the menu, it hasn't really changed in 30 years. Your pitiful purchases mean nothing in the grand scheme (and I do mean scheme) the Oil company owners have in mind. Oil is as water or air in the business world, because the entire world runs off of it, in every aspect.

 

[07Wolfie]

There are a few folks here who really have it figured out. CAFE is just another greenie/pinko/Obama plot to steal my freedom, and I'm not going to stand for it. It's just like the California Air Resources Board screwing up perfectly good fuel delivery and exhaust designs thirty years ago. Is California's air any cleaner now than it was in 1979? Were there any automotive technological advancements that resulted from CARB pressures? Well, ok, maybe that's a bad example. Ok, how about all the safety-nanny touchy-feely requirements that the fascist state places on automakers to include things like seat belts, airbags, or stability control? Seems to me we ought to let the free market sort that out as well. If I don't want to pay extra for a car with seat belts, then by God, it's my right as an American to go through the windshield head-first.

My cynical point is that oftentimes the role of government is to make rules that benefit the long-term greater good of society at the expense of short-term industrial or market convenience. Whether you acknowledge it or not, you benefit from this system every day.

 

[Hokiefyd]

Originally Posted By: Smokescreen
...you can demand all you want...you won't get it. If you guys think you have that much control over the situation you're delusional.


P.S. You do know that we already have 50mpg vehicles, right??

 

[Smokescreen]

Yeah, I am sure that was a direct answer to our demanding, riiiight. Its to pacify the masses saying "hey we are making progress...all thanks to CAFE...." meanwhile we aren't paying attention to man behind the curtain, pulling on the puppet strings.

50mpg....whoopedoo, I get 40mpg regularly in my Corolla, been to 45mpg a few times...the old corolla had great fuel economy as its selling point back in the 70's too...

You do know they had 70-90mpg vehicles off of old carburetor technology back in the 60's and 70's right?? Where did that go? Where are all the plans from experimental designs gone, why aren't they being built upon year after year, getting better and better...???

 

[oldmaninsc]

Originally Posted By: kender

I could say the same thing. I drive about 9,000 miles a year. My wife drives 5,000 miles per year. I'm sure there's people here in my town that drive 100 miles per day commuting in a huge vehicle. Who uses more resources? I'm not saying anyone should take your vehicle. But it makes no sense not to increase C.A.F.E standards on MPG for future vehicles. When your Grand Marquis is in the junkyard, you can buy something more.....sensible.

Would you care to tell me what would be more "sensible" for me? If you'd read my previous posts - remember I'm not a little guy. I can't fit in most of your so called "sensible" cars. What should I do - chop off my legs so I fit in your Honda?
Based on previous experience and what I seen and heard my Grand Marquis will NOT be in the junk yard for at least another 15 - 20 years - unless some one t bones it or something.

My family recently had to fly to another state for a funeral. We drove the Grand Marquis to the airport. 4 adults plus luggage for a week. So I wonder - how comfortable would we be in a Civic or even a Corolla? How much luggage could we get in there?
Some people are just so funny - thanks for making me laugh - I haven't laughed this hard in quite some time!

I'm just curious - how big of a house do YOU live in? Couldn't you live in a smaller house and use less "resources"? Where does your heat come from? The sun? Cars aren't the only way people use up those precious resources. LOL!

 

[Hokiefyd]

Originally Posted By: Smokescreen
50mpg....whoopedoo, I get 40mpg regularly in my Corolla, been to 45mpg a few times...the old corolla had great fuel economy as its selling point back in the 70's too...


I got 48.5mpg once in my '07 Corolla. Under pretty ideal conditions, but sure, it's possible. Not all that repeatable, but possible.

I've yet to see any real evidence of a 100mpg carburetor. If you have it, it'd be nice to see if. If your response is "the oil companies destroyed it", then yeah, I've heard THAT one before...

Bottom line is, one’s stance on this issue closely mirrors one’s stance on larger political issues, so it’s probably best to acknowledge that we agree to disagree.

 

[OVERKILL]

Originally Posted By: subiedriver
Its fine if someone wants to drive an Expedition, I'm sure it was great when gas was $2/gallon. Now that its $3.50/gallon+, how you like that vehicle?. I snicker when I fill up my Subie for 38 bucks at $3.40/gallon with 30 mpg and they guy next to me is putting $100 in is Expedition at 16 mpg. I have NO sympathy for them, none! Americans think they are entitled to cheap gas so they can drive these pigs, well I think those days are coming to an end!


I like it just fine. And I NEVER paid $2/gallon to drive it. The cheapest I think I've ever filled it up for was $0.76/L, which is ~$2.88/gallon. Usually it was at least $0.90/L, which is $3.40/gallon, and right now I'm paying $1.20/L, which is $4.54/gallon.

Some of us don't care what you ----- are thinking when you are filling up your gas sipper and I'm dumping $100.00 in my tank. Our family has owned THREE Expeditions and we currently drive two, between myself and my parents. I knew what it got for gas mileage when I bought it. And it gets WAY more mileage put on it in the course of a year than our Focus does, which gets high 30's in the MPG department.

The people who buy an SUV and cannot afford to drive it are the ones that whine and complain about gas mileage. Those of us that knew what we were getting into when we bought these vehicles really don't care. So when you are snickering thinking "hahahaha, that guy probably thinks he's such a retard now putting that much gas in the tank" he's probably thinking about how bloody slow the pump is and what he's going to be doing at the cottage this weekend.

I find the people that talk about gas mileage the most are the ones that continually try to justify their "holier than thou" position on owning a small car. And want to rub it into everybody's face how good their car is on gas. Newsflash: We don't care! I can tow my quad, carry my family and my Newfoundland in comfort in the Expedition. I can tow my car to the track with it. And I can do it with my whole family in the vehicle without thinking twice about how I'm going to do it. THAT is why we have it.

 

[antonmnster]

Boy, the right-wing loonies are sure flapping their gums in this thread!

 

[Hokiefyd]

Uh, I'd say that both "wings" are pretty well-represented here...

 

[motorguy222]

Freedom comes in many ways,from driving what you want to haveing a house the size you want.

While I may not drive a huge SUV or the likes,it is not up to me or anyone else to tell ssomeone what they can or cant drive.

It is not my place to tell someone that they cant live in a 50 room house.If that is what they want,that is up to them.

I drive a 93 Dodge truck with a 5.2 engine.I need a truck at times.However,I should not have to justify what I drive to anyone here or to the government.

Those that try to impose their view of society on others have certain things that they like and buy etc.,from the clothes they wear to what they eat.

How would these same people like it if I or someone else or the government came along and told them that they shouldnt be buying/doing/using "X" because I,we,them didnt like it and or,it wasnt something that was approved of?

They would not like it a bit,however,these same poeple want to enforce their way of thinking on others.

Since ethanol is made from corn,those that consume corn and corn products should not do so.They are driving up the cost of food because there are many foods that contain a corn product in them.We need to limit the amount of corn they consume.It isnt fair for them to consume the amount of corn that they do,it makes it cost more for the rest of us.

CAFE may have intended to save oil and gas but when you factor in the fact that people will drive more if they get better gas mileage,you lose most of what gain you may have had in the first place.

CAFE has also led to an incrase of traffic fatalities.It was found that there was an increase of between 2,200 and 3,900 additional auto fatalities per year because of CAFE standards,this is according to study done by the Harvard Center for Risk Analysis.

There is also data from the Insurance Institute for Highway Safety,the data from 2007 says that for every increase in MPG that there was 250-500 increase in fatalities per year.

 

[OVERKILL]

-We use oil to make plastic.

-We use oil to make electricity. The same electricity that will be used to charge those "eco friendly" electric cars.

-We use oil to heat our homes.

-We have people that live 100Km away from work but commute in "small cars" so it is "OK".

-We use oil to transport goods across our country in transport trucks vs more efficient rail.

-We use oil to transport goods from China (most of these goods are made from plastic) so that we can feed our shopping addiction and continue to buy the same junk over again at Walmart because it continuously breaks. These goods are manufactured in plants that consume oil. And these plants pollute FAR more than their North American counterparts.

-We buy Chinese tools, with metal and plastic produced in facilities that I doubt anybody can call enviro-friendly, using slave labour, with working conditions that we haven't seen in 100 years in North America. And we buy these tools again and again because they are junk and break. Using more resources to produce MORE junk.....

Where is the "big waste" here? Is it a person like me, driving a 10 year old SUV, getting it annually rustproofed, for at least the next 10 years? Buying tools that will likely never break from the Snap-On man and heating my house with Natural gas?

Or is it the guy that drives the Prius and trades it in every two years. Has the 100Km commute to work, and has a wife with a Walmart shopping addiction. Always buying the "latest and greatest in green" proudly produced in China?

How does one gauge their personal level of pollution? Do we factor in all the junk we buy? Or are we simply judged based on what vehicle we drive?

 

[Win]

Originally Posted By: eljefino
Originally Posted By: Win

I'm dubious of the proposition that Suburban driving soccer moms really drive up the cost of fuel much, but so what if they do? Fat people drive up medical costs. Motorcycle riders crash and run up big medical expenses. Able bodied people choose not to work. People live too far from where they work and guzzle gas no matter what they are driving. The list of things that people do that financially impact everybody else is almost limitless.

It's called freedom. I hope we keep it.


As we import ~70% of our oil there are large piles of dollars floating around overseas and a house of cards in the Middle East we're supporting with our Department of Defense.

We're hampered in our foreign policy negotiations as we don't want to offend those with cheap oil or piles of dollars. Compromising our relations with others, especially those who don't really like us, is a loss of freedom on a giant scale.


You guys up in the North and Northeast still heating your houses with OIL? How much would the price of gas drop at the pump if those old clunker homes were bulldozed or put under an government imposed arbitrary standard on how much oil can be burnt just to heat homes? I'll know you guys are serious about conserving oil when I see the calls for this, instead, I just hear double standards.

I would sure love for you guys to move into the 21st century, quit wasting precious oil, and up the demand for natural gas so we can get a decent price for it.

 

[The_Jeff]

Originally Posted By: Win
You guys up in the North and Northeast still heating your houses with OIL? How much would the price of gas drop at the pump if those old clunker homes were bulldozed or put under an government imposed arbitrary standard on how much oil can be burnt just to heat homes? I'll know you guys are serious about conserving oil when I see the calls for this, instead, I just hear double standards.

I would sure love for you guys to move into the 21st century, quit wasting precious oil, and up the demand for natural gas so we can get a decent price for it.

Yeah I have an oil furnace; it rarely comes on. I cut its consumption by ~400 gallons per winter since I got the house nine years back. Use a wood stove with locally sourced (30 mi radius) wood for most of my heating needs. I hang my laundry indoors in winter; it helps humidify the house. It's not particularly out of altruism; I'm cheap.

My wood stockpile also lets me coast through what I see as a temporary blip in oil prices. Not going to let a bunch of wall street jerks raid my wallet.

It's not perfect but I don't get bailed out. I'm not where there are hurricanes, wildfires, earthquakes, or other environmental lotteries. Winter comes, I pay a bill. Summer comes, I pay taxes to bail everyone else out. There are a lot of people on the planet and in this country

so some sub-optimal land's gotta get used as well.

We don't have an oil problem, we have a world population problem.

 

[KrisZ]

What's with the term "precious oil"??

What's so precius about it? Is it because greenines got some of us into believing that we are running out?

Our health is precious, food supply, shelter and clothing are precious, but oil?

Oil is only precious to the ones that financially benefit from it. That's why they can justify sacrificing "expendable assets" (soldiers- PRECIOUS human lives), never mind destroying the nations that produce oil, in order to protect it and make even more money.

 

[Tempest]

Quote:
The problem is that if I am harmed by excess demand, then those who are "demanding" excessively are a major accessory to the problem.

Does fixing up your house to be nice, driving 2 sports cars, flying on airplanes a lot, and taking numerous island getaways not count as "excess demand"?

There's a really good chance that you make more than I do, and most of the people on this board, so your "excess demand" is really cutting into our pocket books as well.
Quote:
That said, the prius driver could likely say the same thing to me.

And the guy on the bicycle could say the same to the Prius guy and the guy walking can say the same to the guy on bike because it took energy to make and ship the bike.

How far down the list do you want to go?

 

[Tempest]

Quote:
I agree that CAFE standards should be higher. I don't buy this free market nonsense about the market will straighten itself out thru higher gas prices.

You do realize that you are part of the "free market". And that the free market is individuals making their own choices about the things they buy.

Are you saying that you don't trust yourself or your neighbors to spend money "properly"?

 

[NHHEMI]

Originally Posted By: Win

You guys up in the North and Northeast still heating your houses with OIL? How much would the price of gas drop at the pump if those old clunker homes were bulldozed or put under an government imposed arbitrary standard on how much oil can be burnt just to heat homes? I'll know you guys are serious about conserving oil when I see the calls for this, instead, I just hear double standards.

I would sure love for you guys to move into the 21st century, quit wasting precious oil, and up the demand for natural gas so we can get a decent price for it.


Wow. Now that may just take the cake. It is now the fault of those of us living in the N/NE who use heating oil that are behind our energy crisis. Unbelievable the things people on here say. I sometimes wonder if people ever read what they just typed before posting it to see how absolutelly out to lunch it is?

I guess I am doubly evil. I drive a pickup truck and heat my house with oil. I should be in jail or something. Funniest part is I bet I use less "energy" in a year compared to some of the greenie here telling the truck driving, oil heating, energy hogs how much better and smarter and more resonsible they are than us. I almost feel like I am in church there is so much preaching and decrying the sins of nighbors going on.