Short Volume Oil Changes (SVOC)s

[Talent_Keyhole]

Machinery Lubrication has an article on Short Volume Oil Changes (SVOCs) that was interesting. I have seen a few threads about running a quart of oil through the sump or running the engine at idle with a few quarts of oil to mix and drain as much contaminated oil out of the engine.

I always checked the dipstick and it always looked clean after an oil change and leak check. I took picture of the original bulk oil from the dealer and the new oil after it ran it for 15 minutes. I could not shine a light through it. This is an extremely clean engine.

At 92k miles, the pistons/rings/rod bearing, timing chains replaced under warranty. I had the pan, cam chain cover, and valve cover cleaned and completed a cleaning and valve job on the head so no excessive varnish, except for the crankcase. The previous oil had only 1700 miles, as I usually complete a short OCI after major engine work. I have read on this forum and ML articles that 10-20% of the old oil can remain in the engine, especially newer engines. After rebuilding the head and seeing the large galleys and VVT openings feeding both cams and actuators, I am estimating 3/4 to 1 qt remain in this engine when you add in the block main oil galley and pump. Those with turbos and coolers it would be more. I am going to send these off for analysis for elemental and particle counts. My goal is to begin longer OCIs of 15k miles but having contaminated oil may shorten that duration. I thought about by-pass filtration which I have used in the past but does not address fuel contamination or previous oxidation of the remaining oil.

Cost is not a big issue issue, and running a few quarts through the engine for every OCI in order to achieve 15K/1year, is not wasting oil, but saving oil. (3) 5k oil changes is 15qts versus 7qts at 15K. Not to mention one less filter.. I value my time and time is money. The mixed fluid I can use in my lawn and garden equipment and change it twice a season.

I will post the oil analysis of both oils. I talked Terrence Dyson and he said he can estimate concentration levels. I have seen recommendation for his services.

.

 

[Bill_W]

I am buying a new Miata soon and was thinking about running 1000 miles and then just changing the filter and topping off the oil. Any plus and minus to that idea?

 

[y_p_w]

I don't consider residual oil to be an issue. If it was an issue then oil drain positions would be at the lowest possible point, which they usually aren't. On my wife's Civic a standard no filter change (every other OCI as specified by Honda) I calculated about 28% remaining oil. It could be even more if the level before the change is low.

Is "contamination" really an issue when there are oil filters and additives to keep everything in suspension? I thought that diesels typically use extended drain oils that keep the soot in suspension.

 

[oil_film_movies]

Originally Posted by Bill_W
I am buying a new Miata soon and was thinking about running 1000 miles and then just changing the filter and topping off the oil. Any plus and minus to that idea?

On a new engine, the iron parts per million (PPM) concentration is something like 3 to 6 times what a broken-in engine has floating around in there. Based on that fact observed many times in UOA's here and by understanding that machining asperities have been polished in the first few thousand miles of usage, it is better to change both the oil and filter at 1,000 miles to get rid if the extra abrasive iron (& aluminum) particles.

 

[maxdustington]

Originally Posted by Bill_W
I am buying a new Miata soon and was thinking about running 1000 miles and then just changing the filter and topping off the oil. Any plus and minus to that idea?
Horrible idea.

 

[CR94]

Originally Posted by Talent_Keyhole
... Cost is not a big issue issue, and running a few quarts through the engine for every OCI in order to achieve 15K/1year, is not wasting oil, but saving oil. (3) 5k oil changes is 15qts versus 7qts at 15K. Not to mention one less filter.. I value my time and time is money. ...
Two 7.5k oil changes with a single filter change and no short-volume flushing ritual would be a much more rational option than either of those, in my opinion, assuming the engine is clean and in good shape (i.e., not producing abnormal quantity of contaminants).

 

[Railrust]

Originally Posted by oil_film_movies
Originally Posted by Bill_W
I am buying a new Miata soon and was thinking about running 1000 miles and then just changing the filter and topping off the oil. Any plus and minus to that idea?

On a new engine, the iron parts per million (PPM) concentration is something like 3 to 6 times what a broken-in engine has floating around in there. Based on that fact observed many times in UOA's here and by understanding that machining asperities have been polished in the first few thousand miles of usage, it is better to change both the oil and filter at 1,000 miles to get rid if the extra abrasive iron (& aluminum) particles.


This is probably a topic that deserves its own thread...that first oil change. Opinions are all over the map on this one, personally I went with 1,200 miles for my first change (oil and filter). And my second change was at 4,000 miles. The dealer told me to go off of the oil light monitor. Another guy told me...you shouldn't have changed that oil, they put the good stuff in at the factory and it's designed to embed itself into the cam lobes, don't waste it. All well, I wasted it.

Then there's all sorts of first oil change driving criteria, it's kind of interesting, and I'm sure highly debatable.

 

[y_p_w]

Originally Posted by Railrust
Originally Posted by oil_film_movies
Originally Posted by Bill_W
I am buying a new Miata soon and was thinking about running 1000 miles and then just changing the filter and topping off the oil. Any plus and minus to that idea?

On a new engine, the iron parts per million (PPM) concentration is something like 3 to 6 times what a broken-in engine has floating around in there. Based on that fact observed many times in UOA's here and by understanding that machining asperities have been polished in the first few thousand miles of usage, it is better to change both the oil and filter at 1,000 miles to get rid if the extra abrasive iron (& aluminum) particles.


This is probably a topic that deserves its own thread...that first oil change. Opinions are all over the map on this one, personally I went with 1,200 miles for my first change (oil and filter). And my second change was at 4,000 miles. The dealer told me to go off of the oil light monitor. Another guy told me...you shouldn't have changed that oil, they put the good stuff in at the factory and it's designed to embed itself into the cam lobes, don't waste it. All well, I wasted it.

Then there's all sorts of first oil change driving criteria, it's kind of interesting, and I'm sure highly debatable.

A former coworker of mine had it drilled into him by his dealer that he couldn't change the factory fill in his Accord until at least 7500 miles regardless of the time. He short tripped with a 10 mile daily commute. Even after 18 months he hadn't changed the FF.

I changed the FF in my 2004 WRX at precisely 3000 miles as specified in the owners manual. That was an extremely specific recommendation as the sever/normal intervals were 3750/7000. Then I went nuts changing the oil with Mobil Drive Clean at 500 and 1000 mile intervals, sometimes without a filter change. These days I wouldn't bother. I figure with a maintenance minder it doesn't matter.

 

[Oro_O]

Originally Posted by Bill_W
I am buying a new Miata soon and was thinking about running 1000 miles and then just changing the filter and topping off the oil. Any plus and minus to that idea?


There are some very good studies showing multiple early changes to reduce long-term wear.

One I read did a bus fleet analysis. Some got 500/1000/2500 changes (or something like that), then regular. Others just "by the book." This was a good-sized city fleet. Then after a few years, they examined internal engine wear and the early change units had statistically significant less measured wear - presumably for the reason as O-F-M outlined above.

What you are suggesting is better than just ignoring an early 1st change, but it's not going to be as helpful as a full change. If I were to buy a new car and plan on best practices for long-term wear, I'd probably go 500/1,500/5k with good conventional oil, then switch to the 7,500 intervals with synthetic I otherwise use. Multiple ways to go about this, of course.

 

[claluja]

X3 what oilfilmmovies and Or said.

 

[Talent_Keyhole]

Originally Posted by Bill_W
I am buying a new Miata soon and was thinking about running 1000 miles and then just changing the filter and topping off the oil. Any plus and minus to that idea?


Your wear metals will be 3-4 times higher due to break-in. Much of that will be smaller than the filter will catch. My first oil change at 1700 miles, 1/4 of the time/mileage I had already exceeded the average wear for a full OCI. My dealer said just wait 7500 miles but not buying it. I would do an oil analysis at 1000, then 3000 and then your normal OCI to make sure your engine is healthy. My Chevrolet dealer has access to oil analysis services, but they do not advertise them, and they are reluctant to go that route. I suspect the reason is because if there is a problem, it will likely not become apparent until after the warranty has passed. I had a 3rd party warranty and the dealer went to bat using my UOA I did on my own, I got a new GDI fuel pump replaced at no costs to me. The pump was dumping fuel into my crankcase, and most owners would not know until it was too late.

 

[Talent_Keyhole]

Originally Posted by CR94
Originally Posted by Talent_Keyhole
... Cost is not a big issue issue, and running a few quarts through the engine for every OCI in order to achieve 15K/1year, is not wasting oil, but saving oil. (3) 5k oil changes is 15qts versus 7qts at 15K. Not to mention one less filter.. I value my time and time is money. ...
Two 7.5k oil changes with a single filter change and no short-volume flushing ritual would be a much more rational option than either of those, in my opinion, assuming the engine is clean and in good shape (i.e., not producing abnormal quantity of contaminants).


Why is a 15K OCI with 1 filter changes less rational? It reduces oil usage/disposal and saves time and money.

 

[NO2]

This seems a bit of overkill - just change the oil and filter at 1000-1500 mi , and resume following the manufacturer's estimated interval / maintenance monitor after that with a good synthetic and filter. The break-in is minimal in modern car sized engines anyway, After the warranty period is up, move to extended oil changes with an extended life oil.

We've been doing this on multiple vehicles and our engines have lasted well over 250K. At that point, the rest of the vehicle was falling apart and we sold them.

 

[Talent_Keyhole]

Originally Posted by y_p_w
I don't consider residual oil to be an issue. If it was an issue then oil drain positions would be at the lowest possible point, which they usually aren't. On my wife's Civic a standard no filter change (every other OCI as specified by Honda) I calculated about 28% remaining oil. It could be even more if the level before the change is low.

Is "contamination" really an issue when there are oil filters and additives to keep everything in suspension? I thought that diesels typically use extended drain oils that keep the soot in suspension.


Most of the residual oil is not in the pan but remains in the engine head and oil galleys. Drain plugs are placed at the lowest point. Have not seen otherwise. Filters are at best 20 micron rating, while smaller size contaminants also contribute to fair portion of wear. Dispersents are not full proof and do not act immediately upon contact with sludge, contamients and other byproducts. Most large diesel engines use high efficiency, low micron bypass filters along with high TBN numbers to counter soot. .

 

[Talent_Keyhole]

Originally Posted by NO2
This seems a bit of overkill - just change the oil and filter at 1000-1500 mi , and resume following the manufacturer's estimated interval / maintenance monitor after that with a good synthetic and filter. The break-in is minimal in modern car sized engines anyway, After the warranty period is up, move to extended oil changes with an extended life oil.

We've been doing this on multiple vehicles and our engines have lasted well over 250K. At that point, the rest of the vehicle was falling apart and we sold them.


The stock and performance engines I built in the 80's and the new Jasper engine I put in my 2003 Chevy in 2013, had similar wear characteristics during the break-in period. All of them required about 5k miles to achieve to normal wear levels. Granted there are small tolerances and improved machining in modern engines, but break-in is still the same based on what I have seen..

 

[y_p_w]

Originally Posted by Talent_Keyhole
Originally Posted by y_p_w
I don't consider residual oil to be an issue. If it was an issue then oil drain positions would be at the lowest possible point, which they usually aren't. On my wife's Civic a standard no filter change (every other OCI as specified by Honda) I calculated about 28% remaining oil. It could be even more if the level before the change is low.

Is "contamination" really an issue when there are oil filters and additives to keep everything in suspension? I thought that diesels typically use extended drain oils that keep the soot in suspension.


Most of the residual oil is not in the pan but remains in the engine head and oil galleys. Drain plugs are placed at the lowest point. Have not seen otherwise. Filters are at best 20 micron rating, while smaller size contaminants also contribute to fair portion of wear. Dispersents are not full proof and do not act immediately upon contact with sludge, contamients and other byproducts. Most large diesel engines use high efficiency, low micron bypass filters along with high TBN numbers to counter soot. .

I still see a little bit of oil still in the pan with all my setups where the bolt is mounted diagonally. And yes there's still oil in various oil lines, in the oil galleys, etc which I can partially see through the filler hole depending on which vehicle.

However, my point is that the majority of the time between oil changes there's going to be wear metals, soot, etc dispersed in the oil. Certainly it's desirable to complete an oil change before all the additives are depleted and before VII breakdown and oxidation are severe, but obviously the important thing is to keep all that in check because it's going to be there unless one is obsessively changing the oil (perhaps every day). We're seeing engines last hundreds of thousands of miles of use on basic API standard motor oils even with 25-30% of previous oil remaining between changes, and even with what seem like absurdly long oil filter replacements.

What's the expression - "How many angels can dance on the head of a pin?" I know being obsessive about what we put into our cars is kind of the reason why BITOG exists, but whether or not I use Amsoil, Red Line, Mobil, Chevron, or SuperTech changed at an appropriate OCI isn't likely to make a huge difference in how long the engine in my wife's grocery getter lasts. Whether or not I can get out maybe a tiny bit more of the "contaminants" by pouring a little bit of oil into the sump (and yes I've done that when I was bored) just to attempt to drain out more oil isn't likely to be anything more than a feel good procedure.

For whatever reason, engine designers have designed engines which do retain a good proportion of the previous motor oil between a standard oil change. Maybe even more if the filter isn't required to be changed (i.e. Honda) using a 30 micron rating filter.