TooSlick's Amsoil 5w-20 in his Tacoma(?) was questionable. I believe he was going to try synergen 0w-20 next. Any results yet?
Shocked RE: 03 Explorer
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Patman
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I believe his Toyota doesn't call for 5w20 though, so he was experimenting. So in reality we could then say that 5w20 hasn't shown terrible results in the engines who's owner's manuals specify 5w20.
True, I'd agree w/that.
So your owners manual specifys 5w20. What would happen if you ran 5w30 or 10w30 instead? Poorer fuel mileage? By how much? Probably can make up the fuel mileage difference and then some just by maintaining the tire pressure higher. So the fuel mileage increase may not be significant in light of the added protection margin of safety with a thicker oil.
Jason,
I have almost 6000 miles on the 0w-20 Synergyn and have been satisfied with it so far. There has been no oil consumption and it's still pretty clear on the dipstick. The only complaint I have is that my 2.4L Tacoma engine - with solid lifters - is making more noise than it did before.
I'm mainly looking for some insight into bearing wear, which was much higher with 5w-20 than with 0w-30/5w-30. I lug this engine a lot in fifth gear, so the thicker stuff is probably better. Aside from Pb, the levels of all the other wear metals were the same as with the 5w-30 synthetic.
I should have some 0w-20 Synergyn, analysis results in a few weeks. Baseline data is in the VOA section ....
I have almost 6000 miles on the 0w-20 Synergyn and have been satisfied with it so far. There has been no oil consumption and it's still pretty clear on the dipstick. The only complaint I have is that my 2.4L Tacoma engine - with solid lifters - is making more noise than it did before.
I'm mainly looking for some insight into bearing wear, which was much higher with 5w-20 than with 0w-30/5w-30. I lug this engine a lot in fifth gear, so the thicker stuff is probably better. Aside from Pb, the levels of all the other wear metals were the same as with the 5w-30 synthetic.
I should have some 0w-20 Synergyn, analysis results in a few weeks. Baseline data is in the VOA section ....
Ah, therein lies the question. In vehicles that call for 5w-20 does thicker REALLY mean an added safety margin? I haven't seen any evidence to support that claim.
I remember plenty of vehicles back from the late 60s/early 70s and using 20w-50 GTX or 10w-40 in the winter. Funny how engines from those days didn't seem to last anywhere near as long as modern powerplants. I know there isn't a strong relationship between those engines and the viscosity of motor oil used and todays engines/viscosities, I'm just using it to suggest that engine design is a huge factor. Hence, Patman's mantra that there is no such thing as the one perfect motor oil for every vechile.
Mikep
This isn't a CRT vs. LCD thing. There's nothing "new" about 5-20...other than Honda and Ford recommending them as general use now...
My non-cafe 1994 BMW owner's manual states that 5-20 could be used up to 0C (freezing). What does this mean? That for temps over this, the protection is INADEQUATE. Does this mean that cold is an issue? No. It's heat. Heat is the enemy that results in oil breakdown and loss of protection. However, it's gradual and a 20 weight will serve the purpose well at max. fuel economy for the duration of the warranty period. After that, you're on your own. Anyone do a UOA on an oil burner???
My non-cafe 1994 BMW owner's manual states that 5-20 could be used up to 0C (freezing). What does this mean? That for temps over this, the protection is INADEQUATE. Does this mean that cold is an issue? No. It's heat. Heat is the enemy that results in oil breakdown and loss of protection. However, it's gradual and a 20 weight will serve the purpose well at max. fuel economy for the duration of the warranty period. After that, you're on your own. Anyone do a UOA on an oil burner???
If viscosity didn't matter then we wouldn't give a rats _ about GC. It's just another 0-30, right? Why care that's is "a slightly thicker 30"?
Say you did a UOA using the cheapest 5-30 on a 1984 oil burning dodge caravan....what would it show? I bet the wear numbers would be awesome...why? Because it's already worn out. That's why UOA's don't always show the whole wear picture. So those of you 'into' the numbers...
And no, 20 weight oils weren't invented yesterday. And certain engines may require higher viscosities than others (to prevent blowing up), but the same engine in different parts of the world are given different viscosity recommendations because the recommendations should be temperature/climate related more than anything else.
Say you did a UOA using the cheapest 5-30 on a 1984 oil burning dodge caravan....what would it show? I bet the wear numbers would be awesome...why? Because it's already worn out. That's why UOA's don't always show the whole wear picture. So those of you 'into' the numbers...
And no, 20 weight oils weren't invented yesterday. And certain engines may require higher viscosities than others (to prevent blowing up), but the same engine in different parts of the world are given different viscosity recommendations because the recommendations should be temperature/climate related more than anything else.
Thanks Dr T;
And its always amusing to see people attaching engine size to viscosity.
Is that a male Freudian thing?
[ October 29, 2003, 08:03 PM: Message edited by: userfriendly ]
And its always amusing to see people attaching engine size to viscosity.
Is that a male Freudian thing?
[ October 29, 2003, 08:03 PM: Message edited by: userfriendly ]
quote:
Originally posted by unDummy:
Engine that from one model year to the other have had thinnewr oil recommended were UNCHANGED from teh previous model year with thicker oil recomendation.....
I think the link above explains it perfect.
I will I link it, on my 11,000 member, 15 million hits/mo site, as part of our favorite links list.
Fred..
[ October 29, 2003, 08:02 PM: Message edited by: palmerwmd ]
At he post office,we have delivery vehicles that are based on the Ford Explorer chassis.We were using 5w20 until we noticed that the oil pressure was lower,and the warning light came on.We suggested to Ford that we be allowed to use 15w40 as in all of our other vehicles. Ford has allowed this and is honoring all warranty for this engine.
On the economy of scale, a fleet of vehicles running a 15w40 as opposed to a 5w30 would probably relate to 10s of thousands of dollars per month lost to higher fuel consumption. This is one of the main principles behinds Amsoil Series 3000 HDD all fleet oil. Superior fuel economy over a wide range of vehicles. I would imagine that the same would hold true for the Delvac 1 as well. The lower cold temperature viscosity will keep short trip fuel consumption.
even 3% savings over 100,000 in fuel would be a $3000 savings which would probably pay for all the lubricants for that fleet.
even 3% savings over 100,000 in fuel would be a $3000 savings which would probably pay for all the lubricants for that fleet.
Uh DrT if it shows excellent analysis it's not worn OUT, it's worn IN. Wear should go back up as the motor gets worn OUT.
If I had an old engine with low wear metals, I would be happy.
If I had an old engine with low wear metals, I would be happy.
That's the thing...combustion temps. are the same in every engine. Unless you're burning something other than gasoline...it's friggin' hot in there. Do Honda's run cooler than GM's? I don't know....maybe...
However, every car I owned from 4 cycl. to 12 consumed a 5w-30...guess if one doesn't have any consumption issues with a 0-20 or 5-20, then they should continue with it...I've yet to see an engine that didn't...maybe that means the ideal viscosity is one in which one has zero consumption.
But we know that worn engines consume oil. However, how did they get there? Do you wait until you have consumption issues with a 0-20 to switch to a 5-30 and then a 10-40, followed by 15-50? Or do you simply use the 15-50 from 0 mi./day one and never have a problem?? I think this is the magic question. How the UOA's relate...who knows...
However, every car I owned from 4 cycl. to 12 consumed a 5w-30...guess if one doesn't have any consumption issues with a 0-20 or 5-20, then they should continue with it...I've yet to see an engine that didn't...maybe that means the ideal viscosity is one in which one has zero consumption.
But we know that worn engines consume oil. However, how did they get there? Do you wait until you have consumption issues with a 0-20 to switch to a 5-30 and then a 10-40, followed by 15-50? Or do you simply use the 15-50 from 0 mi./day one and never have a problem?? I think this is the magic question. How the UOA's relate...who knows...
Patman
Staff member
I'm no engine builder, but my guess would be that once the engine gets significantly worn out, it's no longer nicely balanced, so things like the bearings will end up wearing out at a much faster rate, thus dumping more lead into the oil for instance. Same with the valvetrain, as it wears out and isn't running as smoothly, it dumps out more of it's materials into the oil too. Then all of those metals combined just continue to do damage and a domino effect takes place. (this is all speculation on my part by the way)
Wow that is really weird, I've never had an engine that consumed oil like that.
Lets see, My 1997 F150 only oil that I have to add is when I change the filters, between that I do not add any oil, I make sure it's close to full on the dipstick when I change the filter than I monitor it probably once a month, I never let it get below the add mark.
On the TDI, I've now got over 8,000 miles and have not had to add any oil. I'm down about 6 oz from full and won't add any until I take an oil sample in 2,000 miles.
BTW I'm running 0w30 in both.
Even my 1992 Ford ranger I ran either 5w30 or 10w30 and it didn't use any oil for the first 50K, about 75K it developed a rear main seal leak and would use about 1 quart in 3,000-4,000 before I would change it(that was before I knew any better).
Bearings for instance usually get out of round, they turn into an oval, wear they wear on the tops and bottoms. This creates a jackhammer effect from the power of the engine. The farther out of round the harder the stress on that bearing becuase of the looseness of the bear, therefore it compounds the effect of the wear.
This is the reason you want to use a heavier oil on a worn engine, to reduce some of the pounding stress of the component.
Can you prove this theory?
I was a pump jockey (that is gas pumper, oil checker, etc. back when there was no self serve) for four years in the 70's. I never heard of 10w40 being for loose engines. Seems the routine back then was that everybody ran 10w40 in summer and 10w30 winter.
[ October 31, 2003, 09:35 AM: Message edited by: TallPaul ]
[ October 31, 2003, 09:35 AM: Message edited by: TallPaul ]
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