Shift flare after fluid change

[Sweden]

Hi

I have a Volvo V70 2011 with the TF80-SC AWD. I live in Sweden so the engine is a D5 215 hp (but thats irrelevant)
I recently bought this car with some minor issues regarding the engine thats fixed now. After I fixed that I decided to exchange the fluid in the gearbox.

I did it thru the cooler return line and used recommended fluid from Volvo. Apparently my gearbox is a gen 2 so it should have the thinner oil spec 3324/AW1. (Built 2010 MY2011)

After I changed the fluid that where pretty much dark brown with a hint of red in it I zeroed the oil counter using Vida and dumb me also zeroed the adaptations.

Since then the gearbox shifts perfect. Smooth shifts and no strange behaviour..... Until it gets fully warm. Then it starts with a slight shift flare during upshifts. Pretty much all upshifts. Maybe 50-200 rpms. No bang or noice. It still shifts nice except from this. And yes it also only happens in D. If I use manual mode or sport mode or do a kickdown it shifts as normal. I dont know what to think about this?

I have had Vida connected during driving and can see that the "flare" happens when TQ is getting unlocked and then the rpm drops when it locks again with the higher gear in place.

Volvo have a feature called "slippery lock up" to make the shifts smoother. Vida write something about 50-200 rpm slip. Is this the behaviour? I thought the rpms would sink in two steps with partial lockup. Not bump the revs up to 200 rpms during shift.

However. I did the flush. And two days ago I added a bottle of Lubegard Red. No difference so far.

My question now. Can this behaviour with it happening only when its fully warm be a viscosity problem? I asked several Volvo shops about witch fluid to use and they all said I should use the "new oil". However. This car is built exactly in the time they changed the recommendations. My11 is recommended the new thinner fluid. My10 is recommended the old fluid. Mine is indead a my2011 built in 2010-10. My gearbox is having serialnumber that starts with 10G saying its built in July (G) 2010.


I start to wonder if it can be that I should indead stay with the older oil that has a higher viscosity especially when warm in this no matter what Volvo says?

If I would try this as an test. Would it hurt the gearbox in anyway? What do you think?

 

[Sweden]

And yes I did an adaptation drive with Vida and have driven at least 500 miles since then so I dont think it is an adaptation-problem.

 

[Jetronic]

not a volvo, but when the adaptations were reset on my automatic gearbox, it took well over 1000 miles before it behaved as normal again. No other changes were made.

higher viscosity would mean slower shifting. Does the torque converter clutch lock before the fluid is warm at all?

 

[Sweden]

not a volvo, but when the adaptations were reset on my automatic gearbox, it took well over 1000 miles before it behaved as normal again. No other changes were made.

higher viscosity would mean slower shifting. Does the torque converter clutch lock before the fluid is warm at all?

Thank you for the response.

In Vida you can activate adaptive learning program in the car and within an our of driving it should have adapted to the new fluid. I've done that several times without any change. And then driven it at least 500 miles normal driving.

Doesnt higher viscosity give higher line pressure? Why I think lower viscosity is the problem is because it happens only when gearbox is fully warmed up. When cold = perfect shifting.

In addition almost every swedish oilsite recommends the older thicker oil when I put in the VIN number in their oilguide. BUT Volvo says the newer fluid. It did not flare before I changed the oil. Dont know what was in it before the change though. Thats why I made a full flush.

 

[Jetronic]

Higher viscosity means more drag moving through the canals and valves, and more pressure needed to have the brakes and clutches stop slipping. At low rpm the pressures could be higher, but that's not likely at elevated rpm.

It is very likely the degraded old fluid didn't shift like any new fluid did, so changing to a higher viscosity fluid might not fix everything, if anything. It could very well be you still need the old fluid though, and it won't hurt the transmission to try.

 

[Astro14]

And yes I did an adaptation drive with Vida and have driven at least 500 miles since then so I dont think it is an adaptation-problem.

This is what I was going to recommend.

The complete adaptation cycle takes some time. You have to do each shift at several RPM points, and an empty road is a huge help.

I would re-do the shift adaptation, looking for the yellow triangle to flash when the adaptation is complete.

Turning the ignition off ends the adaptation cycle. Full adaptation takes at least a thousand miles, so you’re not adapted yet. Continuing to drive it will eventually adapt it, but there will be flares for a while yet.

Re-do the VIDA adaptation.

And next time - reset the counter, but leave the adaptation alone.

 

[Sweden]

Okay thank you for your comments

It is only on low rpm's when cruising like a swede it flairs. If I give it more then 50 % throttle it doesnt happen. Thats why my thoughts are that it may be pressure issues.

Im pretty sure I have done the adaption re-learning enough though. I think I've done it three times because I was unsure if I got the triangle to blink properly on every shift during the second attempt so I did it a third time making sure I got the flash every gearshift on the different rpm levels.

But I will follow your advice to continue driving it a bit further and see what happens. If nothing changes I will do a full flush with Ravenol T-IV + Lubegard Red and and see what happens.

And no. Will not touch the "clear adaption"-button again

If it doesnt get better with driving and/or Ravenol I guess something in the valvebody is acting up when the trans is getting warm?

 

[Astro14]

I don’t have a lot of experience with the TF-80, all of mine (see my signature) have the AW-55, but the control logic is the same. I’ve done “valve body surgery” on four of them.

It may be time for surgery on yours.

The symptoms of low line pressure include shift flare, but also harsh garage shifts (moving between reverse, neutral, and drive).

This guy’s thread is helpful.

TF80SC Valve body repair (With pictures).

www.swedespeed.com

But if it was shifting OK before, then I think your valve body is OK, and this is an adaptation issue.

 

[D60]

I'm zero help but curious as to outcome. Hope the OP updates after 1k miles or another solution is found.

 

[Sweden]

I'm zero help but curious as to outcome. Hope the OP updates after 1k miles or another solution is found.

I will update

But I dont really know how harmful these shift flares are? If I drive too long with it will it burn the clutches up I guess?

 

[Sweden]

I don’t have a lot of experience with the TF-80, all of mine (see my signature) have the AW-55, but the control logic is the same. I’ve done “valve body surgery” on four of them.

It may be time for surgery on yours.

The symptoms of low line pressure include shift flare, but also harsh garage shifts (moving between reverse, neutral, and drive).

This guy’s thread is helpful.

TF80SC Valve body repair (With pictures).

www.swedespeed.com

But if it was shifting OK before, then I think your valve body is OK, and this is an adaptation issue.

Ok well the car doesnt have harsh engagement in D or R whatsoever. So I dont know. Sometimes... Only sometimes there is a short delay putting it in D until engagement.

I read a thread in another place about someone had to change valvebody and his car also developed problems when the trans was hot. Theory there was that one or more of the solenoids got sticky when they expanded by the heat and got stuck/partial stuck.

I had that in my mind when I put in Lubegard Red. That if ever its a solenoid or valveproblem it maybe solves it. But no luck so far.

 

[D60]

I will update

But I dont really know how harmful these shift flares are? If I drive too long with it will it burn the clutches up I guess?

I honestly don't know. It sure seems like slippage. Hopefully more experienced guys will respond.

If it were me, I might drive a few hundred more and then try the heavier fluid. That is not advice, just my gut if it were my personal vehicle. My "advice" here is about as valid as if I were on the Australian Olympic breakdancing team.....but oooohh ShiftFlare could be a cool street name!!!!

 

[Sweden]

I honestly don't know. It sure seems like slippage. Hopefully more experienced guys will respond.

If it were me, I might drive a few hundred more and then try the heavier fluid. That is not advice, just my gut if it were my personal vehicle. My "advice" here is about as valid as if I were on the Australian Olympic breakdancing team.....but oooohh ShiftFlare could be a cool street name!!!!

 

[Sweden]

Anyway. I have a recording of it happening. This is how it behaves. Put sound on and you hear the engine rpm's rise when the shift happen.

I also have indicator mode on in the video.

Solid info light= lockup activated
No light= no lockup
Blinking light = Partial lockup

 

[Sweden]

 

[Sweden]

Wrote a little with a guy from Sonnax checking if they have valve body for my box. (If ever needed) They didnt. Only to first generation.

Anyway. He suspects my gearbox is toast because the fluid of the initial drain was really dark. Me... i dont think anyone can say that by looking at the colour of a fluid that have been in there probably 13 years and 240 000 km. Especially a gearbox with partial lockup that is designed to slip a little for more comfort....

He little bit lost my trust there.

 

[ls1mike]

I will update

But I dont really know how harmful these shift flares are? If I drive too long with it will it burn the clutches up I guess?

Depends on the flare. My Caprice did it from time to time. I added a deep oil pan and filled it a quart over as recommended. Stopped most of the flare. Give it time to relearn it will get better.

 

[KrisZ]

Personally I would go with the heavier fluid. That’s the problem with the changeover models, it’s hard to determine what your vehicle uses. Even if you have a gen2 tranny, it may still have been shipped with the older fluid.

 

[Sweden]

I dont know how sensitive the tf80 is to be overfilled.... Maybe try to add 0.3 liters extra to it and see what happens.

But I think if it would be low fluid level it should flare when cold and not warm?

I do know the level is right on point at the moment though. I checked it twice. Last time when I added the LG two days ago. Its a pain in the a** to check it on these gearboxes though

I will try to be patient. I need to let the Lubegard do its thing.

But on these "modern" cars. Is there anything on the engine side that can **** up and affect the gearbox? Like the MAF-sensor, map-sensor or anything else? And yes its a diesel. We have the dreaded EGR-valve on these cars. But I do think that is fine.

 

[Sweden]

Personally I would go with the heavier fluid. That’s the problem with the changeover models, it’s hard to determine what your vehicle uses. Even if you have a gen2 tranny, it may still have been shipped with the older fluid.

I will give it 500 miles more. No difference and I will go with that