Septic system failed the dye test.

[Al]

Originally Posted By: CivicFan

How would you feel if you were the buyer and the seller cheated like that and you ended up with a bad septic system?

Same as I feel now. The test makes no sense. The problem with a septic system is usually when drain field lines become plugged with soap or grease. This test of running 5 times the actual amount of liquid through a septic tank into a saturated drain field proves exactly nothing.

And it does not test that a septic tank is functioning either.

 

[IndyIan]

Originally Posted By: Al
Originally Posted By: CivicFan

How would you feel if you were the buyer and the seller cheated like that and you ended up with a bad septic system?

Same as I feel now. The test makes no sense. The problem with a septic system is usually when drain field lines become plugged with soap or grease. This test of running 5 times the actual amount of liquid through a septic tank into a saturated drain field proves exactly nothing.

And it does not test that a septic tank is functioning either.

Also in my area the septic tank and bed are designed to a specific load, by the building code. My field is designed for some huge volumes of water, and 300 gallons probably isn't a challenge but applying a test to a field not designed for that volume doesn't really show anything.
The buyer should ask how old the field is and draw their own conclusions for how much water it will take and if that's an issue for them. If they've got 3 teenage daughters then they should probably count on a new field, if its just two of them then they probably won't.

 

[mrsilv04]

Originally Posted By: CivicFan

How would you feel if you were the buyer and the seller cheated like that and you ended up with a bad septic system?


Buying a used house is similar to buying a used car. Anything can (and will) happen.

I'm questioning the test. That is a boatload of water, introduced to the system all at once.

It makes me wonder as to how many septic systems that have functioned without any issues since the day that they were installed, would fail this test.

 

[MNgopher]

300 gallons per day as excessive? Some of you may be surprised at real water usage numbers. I don't design septics, but I do sanitary sewer planning. In this area, the use of about 100 gallons per day per person is typical. Average household size around 2.6 per house ends up being 260 gallons per day for a typical home.

Personal experience: 3 people in my home, and in non-lawn watering season, our average usage is about 170 gallons per day. This is a mid-90's home with typical appliances and low-flow toilets. Unreasonable to expect that water usage may be over 300 gallons per day for a few days? Whose to say company comes over, etc...

Not sure why people accept that sewage on the ground surface is ok? It is a public health hazard. If your system discharges, the system at a minimum has a problem that needs to be addressed. A properly designed, sized, and functioning system does not dicharge, period, whether in wet or dry conditions.

The system in question is over 50 years old. Its lived its useful life.

 

[JTK]

MNgopher, I agree with all your comments. A system is supposed to handle rainwater runoff and is supposed to be designed and positioned such that ground water cannot effect it.

My family of 5 typically runs less than 200 gal/day, but my kids are little yet (9, 7, 5, new one on the way).

Thing is, all systems have to be a sand filter in my area now. Per code (again, in my area), sand filters systems when dye tested are allowed to discharge a small amount of dye into the outflow so long as the discharge doesn't have visible sewage!

All I had was a small amount of dye and clear water ~200ft away from my system, but I've got an ancient, undocumented field/leach system, so I'm screwed.

That said, I can almost guarantee there's not a home on my street that would have passed this dye test given the rain we had all night, the night before. Most of the systems have been replaced or repaired on my street. 23 homes. Dead-end street, up the side of a hill. I'm the downhill guy.

FWIW, I got a quote in the mail from a reputable old-school outfit around the corner. $6890, plus an extra $1240 if you want them to grade, rake and seed the disturbed area.

My plan is to escrow the new owners ~$8-9K and let them handle it, but there's no way I'll agree to leave it open-ended like most are from what I understand.

They fully understood they were buying a 56yr old septic system. I'd JUMP at the chance to have someone cover even some of the cost.

Joel

 

[mrsilv04]

Joel-

If you use the escrow method, if I were you, I would see if there could be a stipulation that both parties agree to the contractor who installs the new system, before work begins.

It just seems to me that this might stop some mighty big headaches in the future, before they happen.

 

[MNgopher]

JTK, no fun is it? We see similar things around here frequently, though we don't have dye testing as a requirement. Older houses, no records on design, and likely designed for lower usage than we generate today due to modern conveniences (think dishwasher, etc...). We don't have mandatory inspections when homes are sold, but virtually any buyer (and their bank) will require one, and its mandatory the results are shared with the county. Depending on the situation, you pass, you fail and must stop operating the system immediately (with pumping), you have 10 months to replace, or you get 10 years to replace. All depends on the situation. Catching these at the time of sale is the way the old ones get caught and repaired. No fun as the seller... Also interesting the varying standards for different areas. Pretty much a zero allowance for discharge here.

The escrow is the best way to do it, and as mentioned, add some language on term to replace, hold harmless if they do not replace, language that contractor selection and issues with said contractor and bid are sole responsibility of the new owner. You've provided a responsible bid to do so, and are including extra as well.

Sometimes you get lucky, sometimes you don't. I know we are facing a likely replacement at our seasonal cabin in the near future for a system put in around 1972. Also looking at around 7 grand when its all said and done. Good luck!

 

[rjundi]

Option 3) surprised real estate agent did not suggest this.

Get a few estimates for cost of leach field replacement. Set up an escrow account for the amount of replacement. Have the field retested in average conditions. If it passes return the money to you. If it fails give it to the buyer.

You move on happy.

I got a brand new system buying my home including septic tank link and raised leach field for $20k. The prior system(stone lined cistern) was installed around 1910 and had toilet paper at the top of it indicating it flooded over at times.

 

[MNgopher]

Option 3 may not even be an option. It isn't around here unless the test was botched somehow. Once you've failed, you've failed.

Again, its a 50+ year old system. It's time to replace it unfortunately.

 

[JTK]

Originally Posted By: MNgopher
Option 3 may not even be an option. It isn't around here unless the test was botched somehow. Once you've failed, you've failed.

Again, its a 50+ year old system. It's time to replace it unfortunately.


Exactly. It's not an option.

My ONLY recourse is to wait for the DOH it issue their 'failed' paperwork to me, which includes their required course of action to resolve. They run the whole show. Your contractor follows their lead.

Then, file for a condition waiver (costs $1000), have an escrow agreement setup with the buyers, then the buyers file for another $300 application fee and they fix it.

I've heard from a contractor I called yesterday that typically you get three estimates and they take 110% of the highest estimate for the value to put in escrow. Of the contractors I've spoken with, they hate working under these conditions, but will take on the job. What scares me if the cost is higher than escrow, the seller is still on the hook?!?! NO WAY I'll go for that.

I accepted the fact long ago that I'd have to replace this system. You just HATE to do it for someone you don't even know. I'll have to use money from my 401K for this and take that hit forever.

They bought on the premise of a ~56yr/old fully functional septic system. Now they get a fully functional system they won't have to worry about in their entire lifetime! All for NO cost to them and the I (seller) loose big time.

What sucks is we were set to close 6/17/11 because my wife is due with #4 on the ~20th. #4 is the whole reason for moving.

There's 3 parties involved. Us, the folks buying our house and the family we're buying a home from.

Word to the wise folks, pay an independent ahead of time to inspect your septic for you (or dye test it yourself).

If you sell when the ground is frozen, you automatically file for the $1000 waiver.

#3, avoid a home with a septic system!

Joel

 

[JTK]

Oh.. and our 'new' home 1mi away has it's original septic system from 1972.

Will someone please bash my head in with a hammer?

FWIW, it passed the dye test with flying colors (no pun intended).

Joel

 

[Al]

Originally Posted By: JTK

Will someone please bash my head in with a hammer?

No way will I ever again have on-lot septic or well.

Dad tried to tell me that 40 years ago. I knew better.

 

[JTK]

I hear you. The problem is, to keep the kids in the same school district which we wanted to do, you have two choices;

1) Live in the village which has sewer service, pay ~50% higher property taxes, get ~50% less home for the money and pay an astronomical water bill. Houses are hard to come by too.

2) Live in the town (like we do). Lots more home for the money, less expensive taxes and water bills that are ~$30/quarter. You don't have the conveniences though. It's a 5 mile ride into town.

Joel

 

[D189379]

Originally Posted By: IndyIan
Originally Posted By: Al
Originally Posted By: CivicFan

How would you feel if you were the buyer and the seller cheated like that and you ended up with a bad septic system?

Same as I feel now. The test makes no sense. The problem with a septic system is usually when drain field lines become plugged with soap or grease. This test of running 5 times the actual amount of liquid through a septic tank into a saturated drain field proves exactly nothing.

And it does not test that a septic tank is functioning either.

Also in my area the septic tank and bed are designed to a specific load, by the building code. My field is designed for some huge volumes of water, and 300 gallons probably isn't a challenge but applying a test to a field not designed for that volume doesn't really show anything.
The buyer should ask how old the field is and draw their own conclusions for how much water it will take and if that's an issue for them. If they've got 3 teenage daughters then they should probably count on a new field, if its just two of them then they probably won't.


Septic systems usually fail when they are overloaded. If you pump a ton of water into them, they don't have time to settle out, and you end up with toilet paper and turds plugging up your field.

 

[Mr Nice]

When a person tells me they are considering buying a house, the first question I ask if that house has a septic tank and if it does I tell them not to even consider buying it no matter how much they 'love' the house. Same goes for a house that doesn't have city water.

 

[Al]

Originally Posted By: LT4 Vette
When a person tells me they are considering buying a house, the first question I ask if that house has a septic tank and if it does I tell them not to even consider buying it no matter how much they 'love' the house. Same goes for a house that doesn't have city water.



+100000000000000000000000000000000000000000000

 

[IndyIan]

Originally Posted By: LT4 Vette
When a person tells me they are considering buying a house, the first question I ask if that house has a septic tank and if it does I tell them not to even consider buying it no matter how much they 'love' the house. Same goes for a house that doesn't have city water.



But then you're stuck in or near a city... How many years does it take to get $9k in sewer bills in most cities? 56? 20? 10? 5?
My septic system and well was about $10k, and even after only 6 years, its getting pretty cheap on a yearly cost basis. If we only get 30 years out of the septic, its still quite cheap.

 

[Mr Nice]

Being stuck near the city with city water and a city sewer system is just fine with me.

I know many people that regret buying a house with a septic tank.

 

[JTK]

Originally Posted By: LT4 Vette
When a person tells me they are considering buying a house, the first question I ask if that house has a septic tank and if it does I tell them not to even consider buying it no matter how much they 'love' the house...


Why is that?

The buyer will make out like a BANDIT every time if the septic system isn't 100%.

For the seller it can be another issue. You can sell in the dead of winter when an inspection has to be waived, or just make sure it's REAL dry out and use little water if the system is shaky.

I was completely unaware of any issues with ours. Never had a backup, wet spots or stinky sewage anywhere.

I get to buy my buyers an ~$8000 brand-new septic system. Yay! and only with $600 worth of applications and permits so far

.

My Attorney asked that I submit two written quotes from qualified sources. One was $8100 and the other $7900. The plan is to escrow X amount to the buyers. I haven't been dropped the bomb on how much yet. I'm only willing to go so far, or they can walk if they choose. Their purchase price included a ~55yr/old septic system, not a brand-new one.

Apparently this is what ~$8K will buy you in my area:

1) Pump and remove old tank.
2) Install new (3 bedroom) 1500gal tank with Zabel filter.
3) 12'x 35' sand filter system.
4) 2'x 2' inspection box.
5) ~120' of outflow pipe to culvert out front w/ small French drain at the end.
6) Grade, rake and seed disturbed area.


Joel

 

[MNgopher]

Almost too bad the septic at the "new" house didn't fail too - would have been better for you anyways.

Its unfortunate that the testing ends up happening this way, but unfortunately it is one of the only tools to catch marginal systems that can pose a health threat. After all, what sane person is going to turn themselves in for a failed system knowing it means multi thousand dollar bill as a result...

Like I mentioned before, septic inspections with home sales aren't mandated by the county here, but there isn't one bank that will lend money on a home without one, and the results of those are shared with the county by law.