School Me on Spoke Tension Maintenance

[LoneRanger]

The new Guzzi (see sig) has Alpina STS spoke/laced wheels. They take tubeless tires. The key is the STS system uses a nitrile or silicone o-ring up in the spoke root within the rim to seal it from air pressure bleed. There is no sealing strip or anything running the inner perimeter of rim on top the roots. As far as I can determine, it is a very reliable setup and Alpina Raggi of Italy has been making them like this for a long time without any major problems. Stelvio owner manual says to check/inspect spoke tension at each service interval which is 1st svc at about 1000 miles then every 6200 thereafter. I've not had a spoke/laced bike except for the 1998 Harley Sportster XL 1200 95th Anniv Ed I learned on in 1999-- had a cast rear wheel but laced front. Always let the HD dealer service it, so never got to experience spoke maintenance. After that it was cast road wheels on my Ducati's. Watched a couple Youtube vids of mechanics showing how to check spoke tension with the wheel on the bike. I'll be using a Tusk spoke torque wrench which is specifically made to check/set torque on spoke hex fittings. Have the STS maintenance manual which states correct torque for each spoke fitting is 4 - 7 NM. What I'm looking to gather here is agreement on methodology. One vid the guy said to start at the valve stem and do every 4th spoke, then when you're back at the stem, do every 3rd, then every 2nd, and so on and that prevents any chance of moving it out of true. Just to clarify,not a question about how to TRUE a laced wheel. Way above my skill set right now. Just about routine checks for spokes that've loosened to below 4nm. Thanks in advance to the crew here, you're always helpful with knowledge beyond my own.

 

[02SE]

In my experience, street bikes with spoke wheels that aren't high powered or abused, rarely need adjusting. Dirtbikes making jumps etc, are a different story. The biggest problems that family and friends in the Motorcycle business saw with street bikes with spoke wheels, is people unnecessarily messing with them, and then requiring someone with lots of experience to get them back to spec. If this is something you really want to do, maybe get an old spoke wheel and a stand to spin it on, and practice with that.

 

[Wheel]

My experience is more with bicycle wheels, but I can't see the order of tightening spokes throwing a wheel out of true, as long as you torque each one. If a spoke/nipple is below torque, the wheel is already likely out of true in some direction. You would only be moving things back. It may be a good idea to apply a drop of lube on the threads and to wipe it off after torquing to help prevent galling. I find it interesting that there is only a torque value for the nipple. My experience with wheels shows that there's enough manufacturing differences in the hub/rim/spoke/nipple that some spokes require different tension then others to achieve a true and durable wheel. The Guzzi sounds like a nice ride !

 

[AndyB]

I think I would just check for loose spokes and rim being true. If you find loose ones then I’d start messing with tightening them. Don’t know how one could just start torquing spokes to the same spec and not mess the truing of the rim up.

 

[LoneRanger]

Originally Posted By: AndyB

I think I would just check for loose spokes and rim being true. If you find loose ones then I’d start messing with tightening them. Don’t know how one could just start torquing spokes to the same spec and not mess the truing of the rim up.

Thanks guys, I'm gaining an understanding, sort of. What I think the Owner Manual maintenance chart means when it says Wheel Nipple Tightening (Check and Clean, Adjust If Necessary) at 1000 and then every 6200 miles is probably what AndyB said. "Adjust if Necessary" has to mean checking for loose spokes. How do I check for loose spokes, and then when found what value within the 4 - 7 NM manufacturer range do I tighten any loose ones to?

 

[ZeeOSix]

As already mentioned, the trueness of the wheel depends on the adjustment of the spokes. If the wheel runs true, then give each spoke a 1/8~1/4 turn at a time until satisfied they are tight enough. Wheel trueness should not change if all spokes are tightened the same amount. Since your bike is so new, the wheels are probable true unless you've hit some crazy potholes or something. If the wheel runs too untrue, then you'll need to adjust the spoke tightness in the correct manner to bring the wheel back true, and also have an acceptable spoke tightness at the same time. Plenty of YouTube videos showing how to adjust spokes to true the wheel if required.

 

[Kira]

Always remember that the threaded end of a spoke can be screwed "up" into the inner tube. I've done my share of respoking. An overhead garage door does wonders when it guillotines down upon a bicycle wheel.

 

[LoneRanger]

Was under the impression that on a new bike some spokes may loosen as the new wheel settles in? Have heard that you're most likely to discover any loose spokes when performing the first service. Embarrassed to say that's a reason why I just dropped $87 on the Tusk spoke torque wrench kit.

 

[AMC]

Originally Posted By: ZeeOSix

As already mentioned, the trueness of the wheel depends on the adjustment of the spokes. If the wheel runs true, then give each spoke a 1/8~1/4 turn at a time until satisfied they are tight enough. Wheel trueness should not change if all spokes are tightened the same amount. Since your bike is so new, the wheels are probable true unless you've hit some crazy potholes or something.

I concur and I don't think any of your spokes are going to be so loose that you have to tighten them to a point where you will Un-true the wheel. I would just use whatever tightening sequence you can find to easily keep track and slowly and carefully torque all of them. My Yamaha Super Tenere has tubeless, spoked wheels that require maintenance and I do find at least a few of them loose every time I check them. Although it is impossible to un-true these wheels because of the design, I have never needed to apply more than a quarter turn to any spoke, which is not enough to be thrown out of true anyways. I have experience with spoked wheels on bicycles and dirt bikes. I can tell you it takes more than you think to Un-true a bicycle wheel. On a comparetively huge motorcycle wheel, you would really have to crank and over toque the spokes to a ridiculous degree to throw it out of true. Have no fear, keep track of which spokes you already tightened and go for it! I bet you it will be a much simpler task than you think.

 

[LoneRanger]

Thanks AMC, that's good news and reason I bought an actual torque wrench designed for the task. Tusk spoke torque wrench has error margin 2% according to their published tech info and range of 30 - 150 inch-lbs (3 - 17 NM).

 

[sunruh]

yes the spoke torque wrench OR for free i tap each and go by the tone of the tap. make them all sound the same and they are the same torque. the wrench has proven this to be true.

 

[LoneRanger]

sunruh, I have heard of doing that, how do you do it, do you (wheel off the ground) tap w/ a screw driver and then investigate the one's that have a lower tone?

 

[bmwpowere36m3]

Torque is only good when the spokes are new and everything is clean (free of dirt, rust or oxidation). On my dirt bike I hit the middle of the spoke with a wrench and it'll twang if its tight and thud id its loose. As far as tightening loose spokes, it kind of depends on how many and how loose. I'd probably go around the rim and check how many are loose first. Then dial in a 1/8 or 1/4 T to all the loose ones (assuming a handful or less). If you start needing to make more than 1/2T adjustments, depending on the run-out spec... I'd grab a dial indicator and double check I'm not too far out.

 

[sunruh]

Originally Posted By: LoneRanger

sunruh, I have heard of doing that, how do you do it, do you (wheel off the ground) tap w/ a screw driver and then investigate the one's that have a lower tone?

yes wheel off ground if possible wheel off bike then as described .... hit middle of spoke dull thud needs a few rounds deep sounds needs 1 or more just like tuning a piano...except you want them all the same pitch. i go around them all 1 time just to hear if any are a dull thud before i tighten any then pick the deeper ones idealy you would do a star pattern but there are so many its easy to lose track so just go in a circle once the dead ones are tight. then other side. oh and of course, sometimes you have to loosen it to get it to go tighter or a squirt of wd40/pbblaster

 

[LoneRanger]

I did this today. Not too bad, about four or five on both wheels had the dead sound. Much more an art form than science. 6.3mm wrench fitting. About 1400 miles on the bike, should stay put a while now that initial run-in is over. Put bike on ctr stand to raise rear wheel off ground. Weighted the pillion seat to get front up. Best I can describe it is a "bright" sound on the good ones and "dead" sound on the ones needing tightened. 1/4 turn was the most any needed.

 

[Silverado12]

I would check the wheel to see if it's true after doing any adjusting to it. FWIW I have laced wheels on my Harley and have never touched them. I wouldn't really trust a torque wrench as the torque is going to be different after the spokes get a little corroded. If they have a dead sound, tighten a little then check the wheel to see if it's true. I've had to true a bicycle wheel and basically I loosen one and tighten the other the same. Seems to work.

 

[LoneRanger]

Stop it Silver you a makin' me paranoid. New to spokes but most of the stuff I'm seeing says going 1/4 turn on the occasional spoke that tonks instead of tinks (my bike has 72 per wheel) won't move it out of true (assuming it's in true to begin with).

 

[AMC]

Originally Posted By: LoneRanger

I did this today. Not too bad, about four or five on both wheels had the dead sound. Much more an art form than science. 6.3mm wrench fitting. About 1400 miles on the bike, should stay put a while now that initial run-in is over. Put bike on ctr stand to raise rear wheel off ground. Weighted the pillion seat to get front up. Best I can describe it is a "bright" sound on the good ones and "dead" sound on the ones needing tightened. 1/4 turn was the most any needed.

See no big deal. Did you torque all of the spokes or just the ones that sounded like they needed it? I would check the spoke tension every oil change or 5,000 miles at most. At least until you determine if the spokes are actually loosening and need the tensioning every so often. I know my Yamaha needs them (mostly on the rear wheel) torqued every 5 thousand miles or so.

 

[sunruh]

Originally Posted By: LoneRanger

I did this today. Not too bad, about four or five on both wheels had the dead sound. Much more an art form than science. 6.3mm wrench fitting. About 1400 miles on the bike, should stay put a while now that initial run-in is over. Put bike on ctr stand to raise rear wheel off ground. Weighted the pillion seat to get front up. Best I can describe it is a "bright" sound on the good ones and "dead" sound on the ones needing tightened. 1/4 turn was the most any needed.

actually its the art of science or is it the science of art? the proper torque produces the proper sound...just like a piano

 

[LoneRanger]

Just the ones that sounded like they needed it. More spokes than I expected had the dull thunk sound. Maybe 5 or six, maybe seven each wheel. Each wheel has 72 on this bike. I have a question though, that my endeavor into learning spoked wheels has left unanswered as yet. I know that when they're manufactured, part of the finishing process is trueing them and that this is often done by hand. My question is during manufacture, when they're building or lacing the wheel, do they initially torque every single spoke the same, for this discussion let's say they set them @ 5 NM (44 in-lbs) as the possible value used. And then from there do they then spin it, check axial and radial runout and make minor adjustments (tighten select spokes) to bring runout to within acceptable range? That is, true the wheel by hand after initially setting all spokes to the same torque value. I think this is how they're done at the factory but don't know. Just wondering. Whole concept is rather fascinating. Never satisfied until I know the whole story on things, LoL.