Schaeffer's 15w40 in a VW 1.8 turbo

[twb]

Previously I posted two analyses from this car using Schaeffer's 5w30. I had great results, but given the factory preffered viscosity of 5w40, and the summer temps I decided to try the 15w40. I've posted all three results below. The last analysis was done by a different lab than the first two.

My conclusion: Finish running the load of 15w40 I have in the car now. Go back to Schaeffer's 5w30, and then next summer I'll probably try their 10w30. I've been having my analysis done through Terry Dyson and he expressed the opinion that I should try the 10w30. He's right that in typical winter weather around here, it would be okay, but occasionally we do get some single digits and below 0F. By the way, despite my confidence in Schaeffer's, I have to admit that Lubromoly 5w40 is really tempting. That might happen.

code:

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oil: Schaeffer's 5w30 Schaeffer's 5w30 Schaeffer's 15w40

miles on car: 9830 15500 19962

miles on sample: 4830 5670 4462



vis. 100C 9.8 10.2 14.9

% oxd. 23.3 22.2 37

% nox 21.4 20.0 63

TBN 7.6 7.3 4

iron 19 8 8

chromium 1 0 0

lead 4 0 2

copper 8 0 5

tin 1 0 1

aluminum 9 4 3

nickel 1 0 not given

silver 0 0 not given

mangenese 2 3 not given

silicon 14 10 8

boron 37 34 not given

sodium 138 106 31

magnesium 343 337 43

calcium 1489 1419 2190

barium 0 0 not given

phosphorous 991 963 797

zinc 1296 1219 979

molybdenum 79 ?? 82

titanium 0 0 not given

vanadium 0 0 not given

cadmium 0 0 not given

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[Patman]

Interesting results! I wondered what would happen when comparing the same brand of oil but then going to a higher viscosity. It appears that thicker is not always better. In this case it looks like perhaps the engine had to work too hard with that thicker oil and thus the higher wear metals and higher oxidation/nitration. The TBN held strong with the 5w30, but dropped pretty fast with the thicker stuff.

 

[jjbula]

Did Terry say what the advantage of 10w30 in the summer would be?

I am tempted to run 5w30 all year long, especially with such good numbers.

 

[BOBISTHEOILGUY]

twb,

This is interesting but also I see to many little things that are scewing the results.

The first one looks excellent. No problem.
The second one looks good except what happen'd to the MO #'s? This is very important to me as it shows me how much it is using. Part of the mo's effect is to fight off the acids as an antioxidant and that in conjuction with the plating it does tend to deplete. On the second oil change, I would have expected it to report slightly higher as a trend.

Notice that your silc #'s are a little high but not hurting your results on wear #'s.

Your Nox #'s are in the 20's now all of a sudden you appear to have 60 for nox in the last oil analysis. This is a indicator of maybe plugs need changing or tune up? Not sure what else may be a factor on creating this but this # is formed by the reaction of the products of combustion with the lubricating film in the fuel combustion area. These are highly acidic and attack metal parts. Nitration tends to also rapidly accelerate oil oxidation as you noticed it is higher than the previous analysis. This is not due to the oil's ability but due to some mechanical issue that is appearing.

at 60% on a 100% scale, you are over the normal limit of 50% and in abnormal. Also it takes a great effect on the TBN # as the tbn now has to try and clean up the mess being created by the nox.

Notice that the sodium levels are way down in comparision to the previous again this dispersant/detergent additive is having to work at cleaning up.

The only other factor to keep in mind is that you switched from one place to another so many times there will be slight differences in measuring so it does provide a better picture if you can maintain with one for consistancy purposes.

These are just a few thoughts But I would agree with Terry and move up to the 10w30 and the 0 deg temps are not a problem for the 10w30 as it will pump well below that temp.

 

[VW-MAN]

twb,

Is your 1.8T chipped?

 

[jjbula]

I like the way the 5w30 has held up over 5K miles. Still 10 on the viscosity at 100c.

If the 15w40 is not providing better protection with a 14 on viscosity, how is the 10w30 going to be "better" in the summer?

I know the 10w30 has about 7% more base oil, but might the better flow properties of the 5w30 and the newer VIIs be the better choice?

The only advantage I can see is in extending the drain interval further. 6-10K may be where the 10w30 has an advantage.

Please let me know if I just answered my own question, I'd like to put my order in with Tim Mills today.

 

[BOBISTHEOILGUY]

JJ., There is a lot of unanswered questions on the 15w40 post that can have a big effect but in my opinion, In his and your case I would run the 10w30.

I don't think this report of 15w40 is representative of how this oil normally would work on this engine as it appears he may have some other issues happening as I pointed out. But again I have to agree with terry as he should look at the 10w30 for his best balance for that engine.

Another factor is he is up north in NEW YORK and your down south in ALABAMA.

[ September 13, 2002, 10:01 AM: Message edited by: BOBISTHEOILGUY ]

 

[Spector]

I thought that I saw a virgin analysis of the 15W40 that had about 10 ppm of silicon as an additive??

 

[jjbula]

Thanks for the quick response.

I've been trying to "think outside the box" and consider a thicker oil (15w40).

My current thinking is if 5w30 or 10w30 posts good wear numbers for me I will stick with them until the seals leak, consumption increases, or wear is a problem.

I do travel to Chicago during the winter and do like low temp capability.

Seems to me that choosing between Schaeffer 5w30 and 10w30 is splitting hairs and both will be very good for my vehicles.

Thanks for the helpful comments

 

[TooSlick]

This post brings up an excellent point ....

These 15w40 oils are primarily intended for use in commercial diesel engines. Their additive chemistry is optimized to suspend/disperse soot and neutralize sulphuric acid. It is not necessarily optimized for the type of combustion by-products you find in gas engines, even though it will meet the current API, gas engine specs ....In this case the wear rates are pretty close, but the 5w30 gas engine oil held up much better.

You cannot automatically assume a 15w40 will work better than a 0w-30/5w30/10w-30 gas engine oil - in a gas engine application. If you feel the need to use something thicker than a 5w30/10w-30, use an xw-40 or xw-50 grade that is primarily intended for use in gas engines.

 

[dragboat]

jjbula.
Take a look at the Shaeffers spec sheets and especially the cP of the 10/30. It is less than the 5w30 which tells me more syns were added making for a better winter and summer oil because of the added stability when hot.

It seems to be the oil of choice all year around in that group

[ September 13, 2002, 01:16 PM: Message edited by: dragboat ]

 

[twb]

Wow, I didn't expect to generate this much activity!

Bob: Yes there are several variables involved, but not as many as you seem to think. The first two analyses were done by Oil Analyzers, the last one was done by whoever Dyson Analysis switched to, I don't remember the name. OAI obviously screwed the Mo reading on the second report because it was reported as 0. We know dat ain't right. I'm confused about the Ox and Nox values myself. Terry said the new lab uses a scale of 0-199 and to just divide by 2 to compare to the previous values. He also said Ox and Nox were fine. I didn't pound on that topic any more with him. And finally Bob, why do you think my Si readings are high?

jjubula: Terry seemed to think that since the 10w30 has fewer vi's than the 5w30, the 10w30 would get less oxidation from the heat of the turbo.

VW-MAN: I was really hot to get a chip about 6 months ago. But, ya know, it's a family vehicle, my wife drives it most of the time, and neither one us hammers on it (much

). So, no it's not chipped. It doesn't get driven hard, although one of us winds it up to the 100mph range about once a week.

 

[Spector]

Originally posted by TooSlick:
[QB]This post brings up an excellent point ....
Their additive chemistry is optimized to suspend/disperse soot and neutralize sulphuric acid. It is not necessarily optimized for the type of combustion by-products you find in gas engines, even though it will meet the current API, gas engine specs .

Why do you state on another post then that the Amsoil 5W30 HDD (diesel oil primarily) will hold up better for all applications?

 

[TooSlick]

Spector,

Well, I ran the 10w30 for about 10 years and I've been using the newer chemistries for the last 7 years:

VW TDI (1.9L)

ASL - a TBN of 6.0 @ 5000 miles
TSO - a TBN of 9.5 @ 10,000 miles
HDD - a TBN of 10.5 @ 13,500 miles

Audi 100 (2.3L)

ATM - a TBN of 5.9 @ 12,000 miles
TRO - a TBN of 8.2 @ 12,000 miles

Toyota Tacoma (2.4L)

TSO - a TBN of 8.4 @ 12,000 miles
HDD - a TBN of 7.2 @ 15,000 miles
- a TBN of 5.4 @ 21,000 miles
ASL - results will be in next week, but I expect a TBN of about 6.0-6.5 @ 12,000 miles

 

[TooSlick]

Dragboat,

The schaeffers 5w30/10w-30 have virtually identical high temp properties, including shear stability and Noack Volatility. However, the 5w30 has better low temp properties and looks to be the better oil - of course I am picking nits here ....

TooSlick

 

[Motorbike]

This is yet another excellent example of how well a mid viscosity nicely formulated gasoline engine oil wins out over a 15w40 diesel oil every time .

This is a Turbocharged engine at that !

A nice explanation by Tooslick as well .

 

[Michael SR]

quote:

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Originally posted by twb:
Yes there are several variables involved, but not as many as you seem to think. The first two analyses were done by Oil Analyzers, the last one was done by whoever Dyson Analysis switched to, I don't remember the name.

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i don't conclude anything, then. for all i know the 15w40 kicked the pants off the thinner oils.

-michael

 

[CosmicFlash]

twb,

If you want a 5W 40, have you considered the Valvoline SynPower?
I've been running it since 15,000 mi. on 99' Passat 1.8T that IS chipped. Have 114,000 miles on it. Did a UOA at 100,000 miles and Blackstone said the engine looked great. I usually go 7-9,000 miles on the oil but my uoa at 8100 miles showed the TBN to be 2.0--about gone.

When you go to Chicago think about stopping by Wetterauer in Indiana just outside of Chicago and getting chipped! It'll be the best ride home you've ever had!

 

[MolaKule]

This analysis, to me, simply says the engine was breaking-in and the Fe wear and other wear metals was dropping.

Does anyone know what engine this was?

 

[DavoNF]

I might be missing something, but I cannot see any significant difference between the 5w30 and the 15w40. Especially seeing that 2 different labs were used.

Dave