SAE Paper on Universal ATFs

[bustednutz]

I know that my Wifes 06' Hyundai requires SP III fluid. I will be going to the dealer to buy that stuff. Castrol makes a Multi Vehicle Import ATF that states its compatable. But its also compatable with about 10 other types as well.

My inner voice is telling me to pay $1-2 xtra per quart to get the right stuff. AND not risk warranty hassles.

Those are touchy transmissions.

 

[Oilgal]

Oh I don't. The A604 is notoriously prone to failure and extremely finicky about ATF, and the fact Amsoil UATF works so well in them says something though.

 

[Whitewolf]

Let me put it this way. If every OEM ran the same transmission architecture, the same friction materials, and the same control systems then 'universal' fluid would be truly possible, but they don't. For instance, DEXRON-VI is tailored to the specific requirements of GM transmissions. If you were to put that fluid into a transmission that used different friction materials and a different control system that required a 'softer' fluid then it might give too harsh a shift or not perform the same in TCC operation.
To answer the second part of your question the simple answer is no. It requires too much compromise. If you have access to the paper that The Critic has referred to then you will see that. The individual OEM requirements are too diverse. The two that are closest look to be Ford and GM.

 

[Whitewolf]

Good summary.

 

[Whitewolf]

Oilgal,
buster is right, some transmissions are more forgiving than others and of course it depends how they are being operated. I have run certain ATs on tractor fluid (don't tell anyone) with no ill effect. It's not a good idea though because with most these days you would never get away with it. As individual OEMs press on with their individual designs in order to outdo each other the fluid requirements become more critical.

 

[benjamming]

If OEM fluid is go great & shouldn't be messed with, please explain Honda Z1 and recommended alternatives.

 

[Whitewolf]

You have probably seen my comments about that one. It's probably the only one that I have seen so far that contradicts my usual line. I have posted this view on other threads but it's just my opinion. Test based, but still an opinion.

 

[Oilgal]

Originally Posted By: Whitewolf
Oilgal,
buster is right, some transmissions are more forgiving than others and of course it depends how they are being operated.


Hi Whitewolf,

Glad to meet you. I trimmed your post only for the sake of clarity.

My Chrysler A604 AT is supposedly anything but forgiving of "other fluids", and in fact from what I can see, Chrysler, after having become Daimler/chrysler, really set the paradigm for highly specified proprietary, i.e. "our brand only", fluid use.

By that I mean, it was DAIMLER/chrysler which, if not being the originator of that paradigm, certainly did make the loudest yelps about using only their brand of "extremely special" ATF "or you will destroy your transmission". Such sold at inflated prices, as dealer only buys, for as long as they could get away with keeping it that way, and DAIMLER/chrysler also refused, for as long as they could, to even make it possible for other blenders to sell the same ATF as an equivalent fluid.

This, in my mind, calls into question this latest reinforced exaggeration of special "our brand only" ATF requirements, and I remain highly skeptical of it. I mean they go far beyond basic fluid differences, like Dex v Mer, etc, to the realm of meadow muffin territory, and I think this is clearly for the sake of their bottom line alone. I beleive it is an advertisment protocl, targeted at service providers like mechanics etc., hence "the SAE stamp", and it is a grab at market share and very little else.

Looks to me like the Big Boys, who apparently have an undue influence upon the SAE, are targeting Amsoil, because their Universal ATF, which in my experience has outperformed DAIMLER/chrysler's ATF+3/+4 fluid, is cutting into their bottom line.

One other thing. Amsoil is a word of mouth mail order product line. They rely solely on their rep, rather than repetitious media advertising, read brainwashing, and if their UATF was really causing anyone problems, the BIG BOYS would prove it pronto.

I suspect the SAE paper, you must pay a freaking fee of $14 to even read, is business not science, and I wont buy it even at $14 USD.

 

[Whitewolf]

Hi Oilgal,
You are obviously entitled to your opinion, even though I don't agree. However if you do choose to read the paper at some time then I think that you will see the point that some of us are trying to make.

 

[Oilgal]

Originally Posted By: buster
Quote:
I don't care what the theory is or what the SAE says. It is great stuff in actual practice.


For your particular vehicle, sure that maybe the case. But I wouldn't assume that all multi veh atf's would be the best option for every specific trans/application out there.



I agree. No way am I saying that UATF is the only way to go.

I am saying, that I am highly suspicious of, a great portion of the whole proprietary ATF thing though.

 

[Oilgal]

Originally Posted By: Whitewolf
Hi Oilgal,
You are obviously entitled to your opinion, even though I don't agree. However if you do choose to read the paper at some time then I think that you will see the point that some of us are trying to make.


I suppose it is only fair that I read the paper, and I will, just as soon as they stop charging people to read it.

 

[buster]

Quote:
Looks to me like the Big Boys, who apparently have an undue influence upon the SAE, are targeting Amsoil, because their Universal ATF, which in my experience has outperformed DAIMLER/chrysler's ATF+3/+4 fluid, is cutting into their bottom line.



It's possible but I don't think so.

Their are other quality boutique brands on the market, but there are also nuances among fluids/transmissions for a reason, and in some cases and for some applications the OEM is the better choice. IMHO.

 

[Steve S]

Who would be responsible if the universal fluid caused damage ? seems to my non legal mind that "universal" implies it is o.k. to use? The oil companies seem to not worry.

 

[Whitewolf]

I think that they rely on the fact that if damage occurs it's really difficult to prove that it is related to the fluid that was in there at the time of failure and not damage that was incurred previously. Most people do not have the resource to take a company to court in order to try to prove that they (the company) are at fault for a failure, so they just give in and pay up.

 

[Oilgal]

Originally Posted By: buster
Quote:
Looks to me like the Big Boys, who apparently have an undue influence upon the SAE, are targeting Amsoil, because their Universal ATF, which in my experience has outperformed DAIMLER/chrysler's ATF+3/+4 fluid, is cutting into their bottom line.



It's possible but I don't think so.

Their are other quality boutique brands on the market, but there are also nuances among fluids/transmissions for a reason, and in some cases and for some applications the OEM is the better choice. IMHO.




Maybe that is true. I can't say for certain. I guess I am still just sore at Chrysler, because I went through two A604s, despite careful maintenance. This did not cease, to be a regular occurrence, until I got a complete rebuild and switched to Amsoil UATF.

 

[Oilgal]

Wouldn't Amsoil's rep, take a big hit though, if that were a regular occurrence? I haven't seen anyone talking about how Amsoil UATF did in their AT or ATX. Are there any posts about that here? Just asking.

 

[buster]

Oilgal, you could be right. I'm just not a fan of any universal type product in general whether that be tv/dvd combo units or shampoo/conditioner all in one. LOL. If something is designed to use a specific fluid, I'd rather just use that. Has nothing to do with Amsoil's quality as they make excellent fluids and are my favorite boutique brand on the market.

 

[Kestas]

Originally Posted By: Oilgal
... I suspect the SAE paper, you must pay a freaking fee of $14 to even read, is business not science, and I wont buy it even at $14 USD.

The money is charged to recoup the administrative costs of SAE to manage the dissemination of information, just as government charges the individual for information and documents that are readily available to the public.

 

[HondaMan]

Originally Posted By: benjamming
If OEM fluid is go great & shouldn't be messed with, please explain Honda Z1 and recommended alternatives.


While the Honda Z1 fluid may not be the ultimate OEM fluid, it is by no means a problem.

I have seen MANY Honda's with ZERO transmission service or fluid changes that where approaching 200,000 miles.

Now .... Honda has had a bad run of transmissions in their V6 line, but again, no fault to Z1.

Some on this board practiced drain/fills every 15k, only to see their transmissions fail. Not the fluids fault, but the fault of poor design which Honda admitted.

I could not agree with Whitewolf more in that these fluids are built around the design of a 'transmission'.

Honda knows exactly what they are doing in their fluid requirement and I do not believe it is about money, its about the way they wish their transmission to 'feel' and perform.

 

[buster]

Quote:
I could not agree with Whitewolf more in that these fluids are built around the design of a 'transmission'.

Honda knows exactly what they are doing in their fluid requirement and I do not believe it is about money, its about the way they wish their transmission to 'feel' and perform.


I agree. What you find is so called "internet engineers" thinking they know more than the OEM engineers.

When component failures exist, rarely if ever is it the fluids fault. Design problems are the main issue among neglect and poor servicing.