You’re not driving a RWD pickup through 30”’s of snow. Sorry
RWD? FWD? AWD? What's best in snow, by how much?
- Thread starter Ws6
- Start date
edyvw
$50 site donor 2025
You can drive through it in certain conditions. But one things is for sure in snow, bunch of trucks in the ditch. Though, it is tough competition between them, JEEP’s and Subaru’s.
edyvw
$50 site donor 2025
On a parking lot? Maybe.
on the road? Highly likely Audi will have to dig him out. Any Audi with Torsen.
Well, I have seen some impressive car control skills on packed snow with a late 90's Mustang GT on snows (probably with studs) on the highway, he passed 5 of us, holding a 10-15 deg slip angle going 50-55mph! This was northern ontario though, so he has a few more days of practice than most of us, and everywhere is 100 miles away so he has no time for southerners going 30 mph when there's a few snow flakes....
For me, on the highways without big hills, snow tires with FWD or AWD are the same. I want open diffs as well so I can spin up a tire or two without loosing steering or going sideways. For low speed grip in deep snow or on a hilly driveway AWD or 4wd with even all seasons is better than 2wd with snows.
For ice racing a well balanced rwd car beats a fwd, with equal weight, tires, drivers, but no one except that northerner mustang driver can drive that way on a public road for long and not end up in an accident. Of course AWD is a step quicker again, with everything equal.
Also a car with supple suspension and a "straight ahead" wheel alignment does a bit better in the winter as well. Even fwd cars with lots of rear toe in and negative camber can have the back end wandering on roads with patches of ice...
I think we also must have a different perspective on what actually "getting through" it means. My grandfather had Crown Vics. Yeah, he could eventually make his way around but it took a lot of time, effort and control. I still think 4WD/AWD, FWD, RWD in that order is how it generally goes but there are exceptions.
edyvw
$50 site donor 2025
Negative camber or a lot of it is not necessarily bad thing. That primarily depends on vehicle. On my BMW maximum value is -1.9, minimum 1.1. Anything below that and car has extreme understeer, while rear end can’t catch up with front.
This was my choice prior to experiencing this Honda Ridgeline in the snow.
Now I've flipped to
AWD/4WD, FWD, RWD.
Yep!
Tires help with acceleration, braking and steering. I'd choose a two wheel drive with snow tires over a 4WD or AWD with four or all season tires.
Two sets of wheels/tires is the answer IMO.
Once the snow is gone, pack them up and throw on your summers.
Last edited:
I think I like your order better now that I think about it. I think a good AWD system (Honda/Subaru) is the most ideal you can hit dry patches with no issues and some roads as you know are snow covered then there are dry spots. 4WD would be second.
I would agree with one clarification.
AWD, 4WD, FWD then RWD.
The center diff in AWD helps aid in steering and overall stability over 4WD separating them IMO.
dnewton3
Staff member
I do enjoy the Tyre Review YT videos, and I've actually used the info in them to make some of my tire choices.
However, I don't place a lot of creedence to this particular video the OP posted, only because it's not what I value in "snow" use. The tester in the video is concerned with lap times so he's pushing the envelople, including drifting sideways through all the corners. OK, but how useful is that when driving on the street? You gonna drift your way through a corner with oncoming traffic? You gonna slide sideways on your way home from picking the kids up from school? It's fun to watch, and it's generating the fastest lap times, but it's not really controlling the car in a "safe" manner. He's controlling it at the fringe edge of operation, not safe operation.
Keeping up your speed by drifting around corners means little to me, as I'm more concerned about traction for pulling uphill. When it comes to snow, I want max traction on my drive and steering wheels. Obviously, AWD is the best. But FWD would be an advantage over RWD (presuming it's a front engine car) every time. Traction is a function of two things: coefficient of friction, and weight. To get the most pulling force uphill, having more weight over the drive wheels is a benefit. So FWD (with a front engine car) beats RWD (with a front engine car), assuming all other things are roughly equivilant.
I live in an extremely hilly area; they are numerous and steep in many sections. I've previously had a couple Grand Marquis (RWD) with snow tires, and now both a Taurus and Fustion (FWD) with snow tires, and the FWD cars do FAR better at climbing the hills with less traction loss. I'll take my FWD cars over the RWD cars in my conditions every time. And my 4WD F250 with snow tires is next level.
However, I don't place a lot of creedence to this particular video the OP posted, only because it's not what I value in "snow" use. The tester in the video is concerned with lap times so he's pushing the envelople, including drifting sideways through all the corners. OK, but how useful is that when driving on the street? You gonna drift your way through a corner with oncoming traffic? You gonna slide sideways on your way home from picking the kids up from school? It's fun to watch, and it's generating the fastest lap times, but it's not really controlling the car in a "safe" manner. He's controlling it at the fringe edge of operation, not safe operation.
Keeping up your speed by drifting around corners means little to me, as I'm more concerned about traction for pulling uphill. When it comes to snow, I want max traction on my drive and steering wheels. Obviously, AWD is the best. But FWD would be an advantage over RWD (presuming it's a front engine car) every time. Traction is a function of two things: coefficient of friction, and weight. To get the most pulling force uphill, having more weight over the drive wheels is a benefit. So FWD (with a front engine car) beats RWD (with a front engine car), assuming all other things are roughly equivilant.
I live in an extremely hilly area; they are numerous and steep in many sections. I've previously had a couple Grand Marquis (RWD) with snow tires, and now both a Taurus and Fustion (FWD) with snow tires, and the FWD cars do FAR better at climbing the hills with less traction loss. I'll take my FWD cars over the RWD cars in my conditions every time. And my 4WD F250 with snow tires is next level.
This has been what I've observed repeatedly over the years. No question about it.
Camber alone isn't bad, but it does put a small lateral load the contact patch, so with zero toe, the tires are still wasting some grip pushing against each other. Now when actual toe in is added, the tires are pushing against each other more even more and on ice they might be using all their grip even going is a straight line, so the car feels nervous until the rotates a bit and one tire "wins", like in a moderate corner.
My previous wagon was at ford's upper limits for rear toe in and negative camber, which is fine on everything in the summer, but in the winter it was nervous, but with patchy black ice alternating with wet pavement, the back end would start jinking around!! Good thing the car has some steering feel and feed back, so you could just use your finger tips on wheel and let it do self correcting mostly, but I quickly got it aligned to my specs of near zero rear toe in and moderate negative camber and it tracked straight in the same conditions. It did rotate better for autocross after that as well but was very predictable and controllable.
edyvw
$50 site donor 2025
Again, all that depends on how the whole vehicle is designed. You cannot take the rear axle alone without taking into consideration the front axle, weight distribution, driven wheels, % of torque going between front and rear axle if AWD etc.
I damaged the subframe on my BMW recently doing donuts in the snow with my daughter. Hit a small curb, and the curb won (I did not see it under snow).
Anyway, until I have time to replace the subframe, I had to give a lot of positive camber and adjust it to -0.6 (in addition to replacing toe arm). That adjustment throws the vehicle completely out of the dynamic envelope and makes it weird to drive, to say the least. What happens is that in cornering at higher speeds, there is a feeling of understeer, a lot of it. In slippery conditions, the rear end actually gets out (oversteers) much easier.
OVERKILL
$100 Site Donor 2021
Yep, that's similar to the Durango and Grand Cherokee. I have a variable electronic locker in the rear diff too.
Most subarus sold are 60:40 with their electronic multiplate clutch, with an automatic or CVT, and when slip occurs, to goes to a 50:50 bias.
Audi Quattro with Ultra Technology is FWD until slip (which up to 100% of torque can be sent to the rear).
Many of the FWD biased AWD system is on AWD mode by default when accelerating from a stop, and then goes back to FWD at speed, until slip occurs/anticipated.
Acura's SH-AWD (and Honda -VTM4) has clutches around rear open differential to function as torque vectoring.
Some of the Toyotas with Dynamic AWD have 2 clutches around the rear open differential to function as torque vectoring, like the higher trims of the RAV4 and Highlander,
I've had the Mazda and Subaru systems and as good as the Mazda one is, it slips much easier than the Subaru. I'm basing that on our Impreza, old Forester I had and 2015 Forester I had for a few weeks. The Mazda is heavily FWD biased and it does make a difference.
My FWD (Accord, Forte, old Sonata) with 4 snows get us through 90% of what I experience. I try to find unplowed lots to keep playing up to about 6".
My AWD Pilot with 4 snows and the ability to use Mud/Sand to engage rear differential and seriously reduce VSC works very well and is the preferred vehicle if poor conditions with heavier snow forecasted. Ground clearance sucks.
Father-in-laws Renegade Trailhawk on Falken AT Trail does good, has better clearance than Pilot, not as good in snow due to tire grip compared to snows.
Daughter's '08 CRV on 4 snows has not gotten stuck anywhere in winter, would prefer if could keep rear diff engaged.
Miss the '03 Sequoia on 4 snows. Locking center diff, low range, 10"+ clearance, went through many 15-20" blizzard conditions. Would have preferred a real locking or LSD rear diff but never did that, never got stuck.
Sister had a '90 Mustang GT, stick shift on 4 studded snows. We took that thing out in heavy snows, up and down hills where trucks and other 4WD could not get up but you could see did not have winter tires.
I like to go out and play in the snow. The lack of clearance and all the plastic on my current vehicles bugs me especially when you get those exit ramps that have not been plowed or got the snow pile line from the road.
My AWD Pilot with 4 snows and the ability to use Mud/Sand to engage rear differential and seriously reduce VSC works very well and is the preferred vehicle if poor conditions with heavier snow forecasted. Ground clearance sucks.
Father-in-laws Renegade Trailhawk on Falken AT Trail does good, has better clearance than Pilot, not as good in snow due to tire grip compared to snows.
Daughter's '08 CRV on 4 snows has not gotten stuck anywhere in winter, would prefer if could keep rear diff engaged.
Miss the '03 Sequoia on 4 snows. Locking center diff, low range, 10"+ clearance, went through many 15-20" blizzard conditions. Would have preferred a real locking or LSD rear diff but never did that, never got stuck.
Sister had a '90 Mustang GT, stick shift on 4 studded snows. We took that thing out in heavy snows, up and down hills where trucks and other 4WD could not get up but you could see did not have winter tires.
I like to go out and play in the snow. The lack of clearance and all the plastic on my current vehicles bugs me especially when you get those exit ramps that have not been plowed or got the snow pile line from the road.
